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  • Mastery of Jing, Chi, and Shen

    As you may know, Sigung has called Sitaigung Ho as the master of mind (shen), while he admits himself being "only" a master of energy. I am not sure whether Sitaigung Ho had innovated or improved the arts he had learned from his Sifu(s), and maybe there is only very little room for anything like that on the mind level, but for sure we can see how Sigung has lit up the whole field of energy cultivation.

    My central question now is what would constitute as the mastery of jing? How would a master of jing distinguish himself while presuming that the said master is also very much into triple cultivation. Sitaigung Lai is reputed to have had beautiful forms, but was he accomplished in terms of triple cultivation?

    Here are some relevant quotes by Sigung on the topic of jing, so everyone can form their opinion according to their ability:

    At first I too had difficulty understanding what “jing” was, despite my knowledge of Chinese and my practical experience relating to “jing”, “qi” (“chi”) and “shen”. Take these two common tenets, for example, which we put into practice in our kungfu training. “Internally, train jing, qi and shen”, and “The Crane form trains jing”. There is also a pertinent Chinese proverbs which says, “if you wish to excel in your art, you need your master to indicate jing to you”.

    My education in English has been a great help, and my training in Zen has enabled me to see the meanings of “jing” as well as the confusion many people have. Incidentally this shows my great respect for Western education and culture, in case some people may mistakenly think that I belittle anything Western since I have arduously explained and promoted Eastern philosophy and wisdom.

    “Jing” refers to “tiny, minute bits of substance”, whereas “qi” refers to energy, and “shen” to spirit. “Tiny, minute bits of substance” is a literal translation from Chinese. Had I not studied English literature I would not have understood this as “the finest essence of matter”, and had I not studied Western science I would not have understood this as “sub-atomic particles”. Western science also enables me to make sense of the frequent statements in chi kung classics that “qi is transformed into jing, and jing is transformed into qi”— something that I suspect many Chinese chi kung masters themselves may not understand the meaning beyond the words.

    Hence, when we use the terms “jing”, “qi” and “shen” with reference to human beings, “jing” refers to the sub-atomic particles that make up the physical body, “qi” refers to the vital energy that works the body, and “shen” the spirit, mind, soul or consciousness that controls the energy and the physical body. When we say, ”internally, we train jing, qi and shen”, we mean we enhance the sub-atomic particles that makes up the physical body, enhance the energy, and enhance the spirit.

    Someone may argue that when he trains weights to develop muscular strength, he is also training sub-atomic particles or “jing”. Similarly one can also argue logically that a table is a chair, or a stone is God. But that is not the normal way the terms “jing”, “table” and “God” are used. Language is a communication tool; we use it for our practical benefits — be it in kungfu or describing a beautiful sunset — not for confusing ourselves.

    Then, how do we train “jing”, in contrast to using external methods like lifting weights, striking sandbags and hard conditioning? An excellent example is zhang zhuang, like “Golden Bridge” where we “consolidate” qi to jing, and generate tremendous internal force.

    Many people sometimes forget that as Chinese and English use different vocabulary and imagery, it is often not possible to have a direct translation from one language into the other. In limited context, “jing” is translated as sperms. The underlying principles are the same. It refers to the sub-atomic particles that, in this case, make up spermatozoa. In other cases, it may make up a person's arm or other parts of his physical body.

    "Pre-natal energy” is not “jing”, although the term is sometimes loosely used as such. The pre-natal energy of a person is the energy he has before he is born into the world. It is mainly derived from the energy of his father's sperm, and the energy of his mother's ovum. It is also derived from the energy of the place and time of conception, as well as the energy he gets from his mother while still in her womb. After he is born, the pre-natal energy is stored in the kidneys.

    In other contexts the same Chinese character “jing” carrying the same concept may be better understood when translated differently into English. For example, when we practice the Crane forms in Shaolin Kungfu, we emphasize developing “jing”, or “the finest essence of matter”. Here, this “finest essence of matter” refers not to “spermatozoa” or “internal force” (such as developed by the Tiger forms), but to desirable qualities like elegance, tranquility and good balance.

    A selection of answers provided by Sifu Wong Kiew Kit to questions asked by the public on Shaolin Kungfu, Chi Kung, Taijiquan and Zen
    The Crane is reputed to train "jing". The term "jing" is tricky, even in Chinese. When translated into English or other languages, the confusion increases.

    As explained earlier, "jing" here means essence, and includes qualities like effectiveness, balance and elegance.

    "Jing" in this context is different from "jing" in the context of "jing, qi (chi), shen", though they are closely related. In the context of "jing, qi, shen", "jing" refers to the finest aspect of the physical. In modern language it refers to sub-atomic particles. "Qi" is energy, and "shen" refers to spirit, or mind, or consciousness.

    I believe I am the first, as far as I know, to translate "jing" as "sub-atomic particles". This doesn't mean the early masters did not have the concept of sub-atomic particles. They did, and named the concept "jing". The terms "sub-atomic particles" came much later from Western science. Having the advantage of training n both Eastern philosophy and Western science, I am able to relate "jing" with "sub-atomic particles" to make the meaning clearer to modern public.

    Please bear in mind that jing, qi and shen are integrated. In other words, even when we train only one of the three aspects, the other two are involved. But for easier understanding, I shall explain the three aspects separately.

    From the perspective of jing or physical aspect, the purpose of training Crane patterns is to attain effectiveness, balance and elegance. This does not means that effectiveness, balance and elegance are not found in the training of other patterns, or the Crane patterns do not have other benefits like mental clarity and internal force. Hence, if one is ineffective or clumsy when performing a Crane pattern, he misses its essence.

    An excellent pattern for the purpose of this training is "White Crane Flaps Wings". Do not perform the pattern just once. Perform it many times in different directions. Or perform it in combination with other patterns.

    Another excellent training method is to perform a double jumping organ-kick. You should be elegant while in the air, stable when landing, and achieving the purpose of the training, like having good balance, precision in your kicks, or achieving good timing and spacing.

    From the perspective of qi or energy, the purpose of Crane training is to have your qi stabilized at the dan tian, yet gently flowing. The focus is more on stability than on flow. You should be able to explode force suddenly and fast, yet remaining calm and composed. This is known as "lang keng" (Cantonese), which literally means "cold-force". .

    For example, while engaging your opponent, you suddenly blast his genitals if you want to be nasty, or break his shin with a kick, without him even noticing that you have moved your leg. Or you remain at a poise-pattern. When an opponent moves in to attack, he finds that you have moved back a step or to another position, but you still remain at the same poise-pattern as if you had not moved.

    The secret is in the breathing and the control of energy flow. Generally breath in when you move and breathe out when you settle down. But your breathing, like that of a crane, is so gentle that others may not notice it.

    From the perspective of shen or spirit, the purpose is to attain a mind that is sharp and quick, yet serene and crystal clear so that you can direct your energy flow and physical movements swiftly and effortlessly.

    You mind is so clear that you can pick up an opponent's thoughts and energy even before he makes any physical movements. This may sound bizarre to other people, but many of our advanced students have attained this skill. They know their partners' movements beforehand in free sparring.


    [...]


    The Crane is represented by essence, which is a tricky word open to many interpretation and mis-interpretation, especially when it is translated into English and other languages and when the readers or listeners do not understand the naunces of the Chinese term. In Chinese context, essence means the best in its purest and simplest form. Hence, Crane patterns are characterized by cost-effectiveness, balance and elegance.

    http://shaolin.org/answers/ans11a/apr11-1.html
    I first knew about jing, qi shen in my teens when I read kungfu classics during the time I was learning Shaolin Kungfu from Uncle Righteousness. But at that time I did not fully understand the meaning of jing, wi and shen. I only knew that good kungfu was not just about fighting. It was triple cultivation of jing, qi and shen, or the physical body, energy and spirit. But I did not understand how to cultivate jing, qi and shen.

    Like most people, including most Chinese, the term "jing" was most problematic. I knew jing referred to the physical body, and that in good kungfu it was not just practicing physical kungfu forms but also train energy and spirit.

    I heard of the expression, "internally train jing, shen, qi; externally train ken, gu, bi", which means "internally train physical body (as that was the meaning I understood jing to be), energy and spirit; externally train tendons, bones and skin". But I did not understand how by training the physical body one can train internally. I thought training the physical body was external training.

    It was much later, after I had established Shaolin Wahnam Association, the forerunner of our school, Shaolin Wahnam Institute, that I had a better understanding of jing as the finest physical substance, so fine that we could not see with our naked eyes, which I translated into English as sub-atomic particulars. I also understood that a macro collection of jing, or sub-atomic particles, resulted the physical body. I believe I was the first person to describe jing in this way, to translate it as sub-atomic particles.

    With this understanding of jing as the finest physical substance, or sub-atomic particles, I realised that when we trained Horse-riding Stance or Golden Bridge, we strengthened jing, thus developing internal force. This gave me a clear idea why cultivating jing was internal training, as opposed to stretching muscles like in leg stretching exercise, hitting one's arms against a wooden dummy, or hitting sand-bags, which were cultivating ken, gu and be or tendons, bones and skin.

    Like many people, including many Chinese, I first thought of qi as air. I thought, wrongly, that chi kung was a form of breathing exercise to regulate breathing of air. It is interesting that now even students in our school know that one can practice high-level chi kung without regulating his breathing. I asked my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, whether air flowed into our abdomen in Abdominal Breathing as I clearly felt qi flowing into my dan tian. My sifu answered that it was not air, and that qi was some form of electricity. People in the past, he explained, did not know of electricity, so they called it qi.

    But I had no difficulty understanding why cultivating qi was internal training. My early chi kung training, however, was associated with breathing, though I knew that qi was not just air. When I trained Lifting the Sky and One-Finger Shooting Zen, for example, I had to regulate my breaths. It was much later, when I had started teaching chi kung in public and when I had understood the importance of entering into a chi kung state of mind, that I realised one could perform high-level chi kung without having to regulate the breath.

    One of my earliest understanding of qi was through reading books on Chinese medicine written in Chinese. Stomach diseases were described as "wai hei pat chok" in Cantonese, or "wei qi bu zhu" in Mandarin, which word-for-word means "stomach functions not enough". I knew that here qi did not mean air, but functions. It was not that a person's stomach lacked air that made him sick, but that his stomach was not functioning properly.

    In the first book I wrote (but the second to be published), Introduction to Shaolin Kungfu, I translated qi as intrinsic energy. I believe I was also the first person to use the term "intrinsic energy" to mean qi. I was quite happy that this term caught on, and a few people used intrinsic energy to describe qi. Later, like in The Art of Chi Kung and The Complete Book of Chinese Medicine, I translated qi as vital energy when found in persons, and as cosmic energy when found outside persons. Now I just use energy to mean qi.

    Although of the three terms -- jing, qi shem -- shen was the most abstract, it did not present any problems. All the while I have understood and translated shen as spirit, soul, mind or consciousness, depending on the culture of the people using the terms. All these translations refer to the same concept -- the non-physical, real being -- though the connotations for some people may be different. A religious person referring to shen as soul will have quite different connotations to a scientist referring to shen as consciousness.

    I was also aware that many spiritualists of the Indian tradition differentiated between mind and soul, and that Buddhists of the Theravada tradition did not believe in the soul. Many Westerners also shared the concepts of these two traditions. But in the Shaolin tradition, which follows the Mahayana Buddhist tradition, the soul and the mind are the same, and are referred to in classical Chinese as "xin", which is translated as "heart".

    In my writing on Buddhist philosophy, I have suggested that Buddhists believe in the soul, though some Buddhists, like Theravadins, call it the mind. The Buddha, for example, clearly stated that since the time he vowed to save the world when he and his mother were drown, had gone through 500 reincarnations to be finally reborn as Siddhatha Guatama and attained Enlightenment, and it was his same soul that had been reincarnated in different bodies.

    I was also aware that cultivating shen was non-religious, and all religions dealt with shen, or spirit. Shen was also very important to people who did not believe in religion. Cultivating shen, which constituted internal training, would make those who were timid to be confident, afraid to be calm, agitated to be peaceful, and depressed to be contented.

    It is also because of our success in the cultivation of shen that we have become very cost-effective.

    Our understanding of jing, qi and shen has brought our training to an unprecedented high level. First integrated by the great Zhang San Feng many centuries ago but still not understood by many people, our training is not triple-cultivation separately but all at the same time. In other words, we do not merely cultivate jing, qi and shen at different times in our training, which by itself is great, but we cultivate jing, qi and shen simultaneously, which is even greater.

    While most others abuse their body when they practice kungfu, have no experience of energy when they practice chi kung, do not train their spirit when they practice meditation, whenever we practice any kungfu, chi kung or meditation exercise, we cultivate our body, energy and spirit simultaneously.

    http://shaolin.org/answers/ans16a/apr16-3.html
    In the internal training of jing or essence, a practitioner enters into a heightened state of mind and remains in a special poise, usually, static, to let his sub-atomic particles be charged with energy. A good example is Golden Bridge. As a result the practitioner becomes powerful, without having to tense his muscles, and is able to perform more efficiently any activities, especially physical activities, including sparring and demonstrations like breaking bricks.

    In the internal training of qi or energy, a practitioner enters into a heightened state of mind and often, but nor necessarily, remains in a static poise to regulate his energy flow, often mistranslated as breathing, to enable the energy flow to harmonious and vigorous. A good example is Abdominal Breathing. As a result, the practitioner has a lot of energy which gives him good health, vitality and longevity.

    In the internal training of shen or mind, a practitioner enters into a heightened state of consciousness, lets his energy flow be spontaneous, usually but not necessarily always in a static position like standing upright or seated in a lotus position, and cultivates his mind by taming, building and nourishing it. A good example is Standing Meditation. As a result the practitioner attains mental freshness and clarity, and at higher levels, attain spiritual awakenings irrespective of religion.


    http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/int...l-force08.html
    Waiting to read of your thoughts.

    With sincere respect,
    Olli

  • #2
    In the three internal harmonies of Jing, Chi, and Shen Jing corresponds to Elegance. By all accounts Sitaigung Uncle Righteousness was not only very elegant but had tremendous internal force to boot from his dedicated practice of Triple Stretch and Dragon Strength.
    Shaolin Wahnam USA

    "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

    Comment


    • #3
      Dear David Siheng,

      Originally posted by David Langford View Post
      By all accounts Sitaigung Uncle Righteousness was not only very elegant but had tremendous internal force to boot from his dedicated practice of Triple Stretch and Dragon Strength.
      What you write is obviously true. Sigung has written how the dedicated practice of Kungfu via external methods would eventually let the Kungfu exponents generate tremendous internal force. There is nothing wrong in that and I have no doubt that Sitaigung Uncle Righteousness had used and mastered the traditional external way.

      I don't quite agree that gaining internal force in this way would constitute as effective cultivation of mind as per our high standard. You didn't say anything like that, but we need to be completely clear with this. From what I've read it seems fair to say that Sitaigung Lai did not know how to cultivate internally which would've been a clear indication of mind cultivation. Sitaigung Lai passed the Dragon Strength and Essence of Shaolin as his best arts to our Sigung, and undoubtedly he would've also taught internal cultivation methods to a deserving student if he knew it. This is my reasoning why Sitaigung Lai may not have been very accomplished in triple cultivation.

      With sincere respect,
      Olli

      Comment


      • #4
        I didn't mention anything like that because I don't want to make assumptions based on speculation. I've never had the pleasure of meeting Uncle Righteousness and asking him such, so I can't assume what he did or did not know.

        Here's an example, he was very masterful at combat application, yet as far as I am aware did not teach combat application. Get where I am coming from?

        Have a great one!
        David
        Shaolin Wahnam USA

        "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

        Comment


        • #5
          Dear David Siheng,

          Originally posted by David Langford View Post
          I didn't mention anything like that because I don't want to make assumptions based on speculation. I've never had the pleasure of meeting Uncle Righteousness and asking him such, so I can't assume what he did or did not know.

          Here's an example, he was very masterful at combat application, yet as far as I am aware did not teach combat application. Get where I am coming from?
          I understand you, and that's a very nice example indeed! Thank you for pointing out this.

          I mentioned Sitaigung Lai in the original post was because I did not want to exclude the possibility that he was particularly accomplished in triple cultivation, and because beautiful forms such as his are a necessary, though not sufficient condition for mastery of jing.

          Has the world already witnessed a master of jing? I thought he would also be an obvious in-house canditate in such discussion. Sitaigung Lai's legacy in Shaolin Wahnam is very much limited to external aspects of the Shaolin arts, so that is the best we can use for our discernment. His legacy represents the typical external attainments, which in my humble opinion is not enough for genuine triple cultivation.

          In a relative level even the external way of force cultivation could result in mastery of energy when compared to regular folk without any cultivation attainments. This kind mastery of energy falls short of the peak that our Sigung has accomplished and kindly transmitted. Bringing in the triple cultivation requirement is natural if we want to see what is at the peak when the development of jing is not limited by external methods, just as Sigung has shown us how energy training can be optimized through the triple cultivation.

          With sincere respect,
          Olli

          Comment


          • #6
            That's just the way things were done.

            The past masters who cultivated without our advantage of skill/technique differentiation were still way ahead of us in skill and accomplishment. The standard was much higher than it is today.
            Shaolin Wahnam USA

            "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

            Comment


            • #7
              Dear everyone and David Siheng,

              Originally posted by David Langford View Post
              The past masters who cultivated without our advantage of skill/technique differentiation were still way ahead of us in skill and accomplishment.
              Could it be that the relative lack of sophistication (compared to Shaolin Wahnam standards) led them to practice in a manner that gave better results in long term? Could the cultivation of jing have something to do with it?

              It would be good to ask how to specifically cultivate jing and what are the benefits of focusing on it. I suddenly realized that I know very little! Picture perfect form, stability, and elegance are given already by Sigung's texts. Criteria for cultivating mind are easy to observe: absence of intruding thoughts and mental control are easy to verify. Do you feel chi flowing? Congratulations, you have cultivated your energy. On the other hand, the essential qualities of jing are much harder to attain and ascertain in my beginner's view. It seems that while the mind is the most powerful, it's also the easiest to change for better. Jing is the other way around.

              Suggested techniques, supposing that other things are equal, are for example stance training and Crane influenced (by spirit, not necessarily form) Shaolin Kungfu sets and styles:

              Stance training (fundamental stability)
              Horse-riding Stance (stability)
              Golden Bridge (even more stability)
              Iron Wire (super stability, dynamic)
              Wing Choon (cost effectiveness of attacks)
              Wuzuquan (one of the five ancestor styles was a Crane style)
              Shaolin Five-Animal Set (more emphasis on Crane spirit and form)
              Wahnam Taijiquan (dragon and crane)
              Tiger-Crane sets (especially 36 and 72-Pattern sets)
              Shaolin 36 Leg Techniques (good legwork is important for developing jing)
              Lohan Worships Buddha, Iron Bull Ploughs Earth, Old Monk Takes off Shoes, Night Guard Tests Sea, Swallow Flying through Clouds (a selection from the 18-Lohan Art)
              Fujian White Crane (probably the gold standard for developing Crane qualities)
              Shaolin Tantui (even more legwork)
              Northern Shaolin Seven-Star (seven-star jump, excellent legwork)
              Wudang Taijiquan (peak triple cultivation in terms of finesse)
              Dragon Strength (peak triple cultivation in terms of volume)
              Art of 1000 Steps (stable and elegant control of dan tian)
              Art of Lightness (how elegant is the weight and movement of a feather?)

              This is my guess of a few selected arts on how effective they are for training jing, arranged top down from worse to better. Unfortunately it's a very speculative list for my inexperience, but it was fun compiling it anyway.

              It would be interesting to have a relative comparison akin to the magnificient Flowing-Force to Consolidated-Force in Various Kungfu Styles about the usual proportion of jing, qi, and shen for different sets.

              With sincere respect,
              Olli

              Comment


              • #8
                Perhaps it is because the past masters entire lives were focused so very deeply on the arts? It could have been a combination of the past masters being far more dedicated to training for long hours every single day, because for them it was a matter of life and death; and the monks focusing their entire lives on the heights of spiritual attainment, enlightenment.

                I've read Sigung mentioning for example (paraphrasing) that past masters would take a much longer time to activate the small universe than someone who attends the small universe course, but due to the dedication and time spent training once activated it was of a far greater volume.

                I hope someone more knowledgeable might come forward to illuminate us.
                Shaolin Wahnam USA

                "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Olli,

                  thank you very much for compiling the many writings of Sitaigung around this theme.

                  You know that I’m also just a beginner and anyway I couldn’t contribute to the subject itself.

                  It’s sort of that I dedicate myself a bit to just following Sitaigung’s teachings like training according to the schools syllabus with my Sifu trusting it’s the best way of training including triple-cultivation and in some years down the road I may have gained also more competence around this theme through personal experience, like no need to figure it out right now.

                  But for me the discussion also looks a bit like ‘a house of assumptions’ and I do not say they were wrong if so or that there’s just one way to read it.

                  It’s just that how I read it you seem to like to know, how to distinguish ‘a master of jing with the background of triple cultivation’ and this seems to be based on your understanding of the theme in the first sentence of this thread, saying ‘Sigung has called Sitaigung Ho as the master of mind (shen), while he admits himself being “only” a master of energy’.

                  So, I get the impression here wrongly or rightly, you sort of take this for Ho Fatt Nam being a ‘distinguished’ master of shen and ‘my’ Sitaigung being a ‘distinguished master of chi’ and now ask what a ‘distinguished master of jing’ would be, all within the background of triple cultivation.

                  Apart from that I do not know the original quote, I personally cannot read out of this sentence, that Sitaigung said himself this could be ‘distinguished’ and in the compiled writings he was writing about triple cultivation in my understanding and not about ‘distinguished cultivation’.

                  There may be subtleties as to how a Master as Sitaigung refers to him and his teacher in terms of respect und humbleness. There may be things unsaid or unmentioned.

                  Sitaigung often writes and says that contrary to the western use of language in Chinese culture or Kung Fu culture terms are used for convenience and not exclusive. Therefore I suppose that honoring somebody as a master of shen does not say he wasn’t also a master of chi and jing. And can someone be a master of energy without also mastering shen and jing (if ‘master of energy’ here refers to chi and isn’t used upfront ‘in english’ as a broader term)? Maybe that’s a reason why we do have triple cultivation. Also, isn’t it the same person this refers to? It’s not an abstract training or cultivation of shen, chi and jing, ‘they all belong to the same person’ the same as feed, body and hands for example, isn’t it?

                  Now, what I sort of was reminded when reading your first sentence of this thread and which may be another way to understand the sentence in terms of ‘historical context’ and not in the sense ‘to distinguish something’, is Sitaigung’s book ‘The Way of the Master’ and the ‘possible context’ - in my words - that Sitaigung is mostly publicly known as ‘Sifu Wong’, as a Shaolin Master and Chi Kung Healer.

                  While his teacher Ho Fatt Nam (I’m sorry, my school guide ends the family names at Sitaigung ‘upwards’, would therefore Si Jo be the correct relative name from my perspective?) also was a Shaolin Master and Healer he wasn’t foremost publicly known as such, but instead as a ‘Daoist Spiritualist’ and he also had at least one student who did not train Kung Fu with him.

                  Or with use of the term ‘distinguished’, maybe it’s the historical context and what they are foremost publicly known for or the ‘fields of their practice’ that ‘distinguishes’ them or ‘associates’ them ‘foremost to shen or energy’. It may not mean it would make sense to ‘distinguish’ this in the training methods or to pursue something specifically. From how I remember ‘The Way of the Master’ it was more ‘a matter of fate’ or ‘heaven’s will’.

                  Thank you, Looking forward to seeing you in England, Olli,
                  Best regards,
                  Michael
                  Last edited by MichaelS; 13 May 2016, 12:17 AM. Reason: typo, formatting

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Michael Sijat,

                    Originally posted by MichaelS View Post
                    Apart from that I do not know the original quote, I personally cannot read out of this sentence, that Sitaigung said himself this could be ‘distinguished’ and in the compiled writings he was writing about triple cultivation in my understanding and not about ‘distinguished cultivation’.

                    There may be subtleties as to how a Master as Sitaigung refers to him and his teacher in terms of respect und humbleness. There may be things unsaid or unmentioned.
                    Let's have more quotes from Sigung to provide more background on the topic:

                    Teachings of Grandmaster Ho Fatt Nam


                    Question
                    I have heard Sigung state previously that Sitaigung Ho was a "Master of Mind".



                    What were the relative contributions of Sitaigung Ho's (a) personal character, (b) Kung Fu practice and (c) innate capacity for spiritual development that Sitaigung Ho was born with, in achieving the extraordinary level of being a "Master of Mind"?



                    Are there factors other that the three I have listed that should be considered when discussing the extraordinary level which Sitaigung Ho achieved? If there are, would SIgung be kind enough to elaborate on them?


                    Sifu Kevin Barry


                    Answer
                    I am just a master of energy, but my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, was a master of mind, which is of a higher level. My sifu was very highly accomplished in kungfu, chi kung as well as spiritual cultivation, and I am forever grateful to him for his kindness and teaching.

                    [...]
                    Questions and Answers February 2004 (Part 2)

                    You mentioned once that you were a master of energy but Sigung Ho Fatt Namwas also a master of mind. Could you please define what you meant by these terms (master of energy and master of mind)?

                    Answer

                    Although our training is holistic, i.e. we develop all our three components of “jing”, “qi” (“chi”) and “shen”, due to our differences in approaches, developmental stages and other factors, we may emphasize different aspects of our training.

                    My training is mainly on energy, using techniques like “Lifting the Sky”, “Golden Bridge”, “One Finger Shooting Zen”, “Sinew Metamorphosis” and “Cosmic Breathing”. Hence I become a master of energy, and I am capable of such feats where abundant energy is needed, like channeling chi, manifesting tremendous internal force, and having much vitality and stamina.

                    My sifu's training emphasized mind, practicing meditation most of the time. In his later years, my sifu did not sleep in bed at night. He did sitting meditation instead.

                    Hence he became a master of mind, and was capable of such feats where a very powerful mind was needed, and which many people might consider miracles or fakeries, such as helping people to overcome calamities by chanting mantras, exorcizing evil spirits, and even asking lesser gods to do his bidding! I seldom mentioned these abilities of my sifu because many people might think I was crazy.
                    With sincere respect,
                    Olli

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dear Olli Sisook,

                      thank you very much for adding Sitaigung’s quotes that make the background of this thread much clearer to me.

                      Did not know these quotes myself, they are very interesting.

                      With Shaolin Salute,
                      Best regards,

                      Michael

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dear esteemed readers and David Siheng!

                        Originally posted by David Langford View Post
                        Perhaps it is because the past masters entire lives were focused so very deeply on the arts? It could have been a combination of the past masters being far more dedicated to training for long hours every single day, because for them it was a matter of life and death; and the monks focusing their entire lives on the heights of spiritual attainment, enlightenment.

                        I've read Sigung mentioning for example (paraphrasing) that past masters would take a much longer time to activate the small universe than someone who attends the small universe course, but due to the dedication and time spent training once activated it was of a far greater volume.

                        I hope someone more knowledgeable might come forward to illuminate us.
                        Dedicated practice is a superb observation. In our Wahnam style training for hours isn't passable because of the danger of overtaining, hence I must reply with another question: if the past masters could practice for hours without jeopardizing their wellbeing, is it especially because they mainly cultivated jing? Let's examine the possibilities.
                        1. They cultivated flesh, bones, and tendons. This is unlikely because as the past masters had gotten more proficient in relaxation, their practice started turning more internal. In theory spending of internally gained energy in external manner might sound compelling, but it wouldn't had been smart to practice much in this external way because internal force could lock up in the body and without the skill of chi flow the masters would've compromised their health.
                        2. They cultivated mind. Sigung has written that in the past mind training was usually taught separately as meditation for selected students. Keeping the mind free of thoughts is a fundamental skill for all internal cultivation, but relatively speaking it's probably not enough to call it specifically mind training.
                        3. They cultivated energy (and internal force). This is unlikely because they would start experiencing overtraining as some of us have done with much less practice.
                        4. They cultivated jing. Do we have any idea if there is any danger of overtraining jing?
                        5. They practiced triple cultivation. As remarked by Sigung, true triple cultivation has been an extremely rare privilege in the past. Successful triple cultivation could easily lead to overtraining, so it's probably not the option that anyone would pursue for hours.

                        This deduction might all be wrong though.

                        Now I am really curious about which of our practices relatively minimize the cultivation of energy without compromising our depth of development, but either instead cultivate jing or cultivate mostly mind and jing. How good is the skill of focusing in form for example?

                        I think there have been enough good questions so far, and I echo David's sentiments. Maybe it's time to see if any of our seniors take the bait and kindly enlighten our (well, mostly mine ) ignorance. Or even better, considering the difficult theory and preciousness of experience: ask Sigung.

                        With sincere respect,
                        Olli

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                        • #13
                          The Internal Body

                          Dear everyone,

                          An intriguing idea came up in my mind today. A little bit of geometry and inspiration from physics might be fruitful for grasping the concepts. Since triple cultivation consistst of three interrelated formless features, maybe we could also think of them as three different aspects of a single body. For the sake of convenience and my not knowing of any similar concept, I decided to name it as the internal body.

                          Jing = stability (control), smoothness
                          Chi = bandwitdth, velocity
                          Shen = volume, shape

                          Imagine a body (or object) of any shape. In that body there are currents that travel (mostly) separate pathways. The currents have distinctive bandwidths as in how much they can carry and distinctive velocities such as whether it is flowing relatively fast or consolidated into a slower flow. Are the currents uniform in quality? If so, then this is evidence of strong smoothness. Smoothness is essential for a stable being and a controlled transitions of energy. Smoothness guarantees malleability, so mental concentration can easily hold on to any shape and or induce any energetic experience.

                          What do you think?

                          With sincere respect,
                          Olli

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