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  • Questions about karma

    Hello family!

    I asked Siheng Markus these questions but would appreciate your views on them also.

    Example 1: If a friend asks me to get him drugs, am I doing the right thing because he will be happy to get his dose, or am I doing wrong because he will feel bad when he comes down from the high?

    Example 2: My mother asks me to cut down some bushes in the garden but my father doesnt want them to be cut. How can I know what is the right thing to do?

    Aren't good and bad subjective things? I find it hard to believe in karma after pondering these questions.
    Sun aika kukkaan on puhjeta
    kohti taivasta kurkottaa

    Juuret viimein kylmän kiven murtaa
    jos vain ymmärtää odottaa

  • #2
    Dear Jussi,

    here is something like your ‚little brother‘ from Switzerland.

    Why should it matter to me or to the universe if you believe in karma or not?

    Why should it matter to you?

    These questions and perceived contradictions from my point of view do only exist in your intellectual mind. That’s also why I wouldn’t like to engage in discussing them, as we have the motto ‘Don’t intellectualize’ in our school.

    Furthermore according to Sitaigung’s books how I understand them one basic pillar of so called ‘buddhism’ or ‘taoism’ is to not believe something, just for example because a teacher says something, instead of this we’re ‘supposed’ to experience it for ourselves.

    But this ‘experiencing’ if you’d ask me is not ‘thinking about it or intellectualizing it’. That’s what meditation, ‘entering silence or tao’, ‘one-pointed-mind’ and ‘no-mind’ are for and if you go into any of these you couldn’t ponder this ‘problem’ or ‘questions’ as you would have to start to think or intellectualize which would bring you out of this state.

    Now, I’ve seen and heard people saying something like ‘yeah, it’s about training the mind’ and while saying this they were pointing with their index-finger to the side of their head. But as written by Sitaigung, in Chinese culture it is the heart that ‘thinks’, so they would have to hold their hand on the center of their chest to get closer to the ‘chinese idea’. We ‘Westerners’ would say the heart most of all ‘feels’.

    Also, during the recent Zen or Zhang San Feng course Sitaigung said, the old Chinese never called themselves ‘buddhist’ or ‘taoist’ and they viewed this teachings not as something to believe in but as practical philosophies, they just ‘tried them out’ and when it didn’t work for them they ‘just chucked them away’. He also asked us ‘Do you think Buddha cares about whether you believe his teachings or follow them?’ and he said ‘Not at all’.

    From my point of view, it’s in the western culture from the so-called ‘Christianization’ on, that it’s about believes, belief-systems, consent, ‘convincing somebody’ or otherwise calling and treating somebody as an ‘heretic’. Also, in western ‘institutions’ they give you some ‘special attention’ if you indicate you may think or believe otherwise, but for my taste that’s an attention game in order to keep you ‘in the pack’, to keep you in their sphere of influence. Once I even said in a conversation at a course ‘this school is not a church’…

    So, shall I convince you of something? I wouldn’t dare to try.

    Or, as the Indian teacher now known by the name of ‘Osho’ once put it: ‘Anybody who wants to give you a believe system is your foe’.

    With Shaolin Salute,
    Sincerely,
    Michael
    Last edited by MichaelS; 14 April 2016, 12:56 PM. Reason: typo

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Jussi,

      Good and bad being subjective from our point of view doesn't disprove karma, karma is the universal phenomena of cause and effect. It is something else. We do something, and something else happens and so on, the cause and effect perpetuates indefinitely. The common analogy is a ripple in a pond. The ripple starts and eventually the ripple moves out of sight. The waves rebound and come back to where we started the ripples. The ripples may not be easily visible.

      Example 1: Giving your friend more drugs makes him feel good for now, but it does not address the root problem. Why is your friend doing drugs ? Is he withdrawn/depressed/unhappy? Why does he have a drug habit? Etc. Encouraging and supporting your friend to stop or reduce taking drugs would be more compassionate (although perceived as being "harsher") and would result in better karma because he can live more fully. You will enjoy each others company more because he is more present (ie not too stoned to enjoy or notice your company). Good cause, good effect.

      Example 2: The mother is right, the father is right, both are right and neither are right. It depends on your subjective perspective, its not a karma issue. The outcome that is most compassionate and reduces suffering would generate the most "good" karma, its not apparently obvious with the information you provided. Also the parents should discuss the fate of the bush, and not leave it up to you to decide. You could ask them both at the same time and get a clearer answer.

      In both cases the examples project feeling "responsible for" these people instead of "responsible to" these people. It would be helpful to note the difference.

      I see good people that treat others and themselves well, attract good things into their lives (from my experience in my life and observing others). The opposite goes for people that treat others and themselves poorly, they are generally not happy (also true from my observations). Not a case of good or bad, but cause and effect. The evidence is plentiful if you look for it. Also, sometimes bad events happen and we have the ability to let them to wear us down, or turn them into opportunities. Events are neutral, but our perception determines our reality. With this in mind, karma starts at the thoughts, which affect our perception and dictate our reality. This is why Sifu (your Sigung) reminds us to always keep noble thoughts, it is for our benefit we can generate good cause and effect.

      The argument appears to be intellectual from your end and wanting to prove karma doesn't exist. If you don't want to believe in karma that is up to you. It would be beneficial to re-evaluate your views, I hope this helps.

      I would be curious to hear what Markus told you, I have enjoyed reading his posts in the past.

      With Shaolin salute,
      -Chris

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Jussi,

        I caught a mistake in my last post, towards the end I meant to say "This is why Sifu (or your Sigung?) reminds us to always keep noble thoughts, it is for our benefit so we can generate good cause and effect.". I was unclear about who first taught you in Shaolin Wahnam.

        My apologies, I couldn't figure out how to edit my post the normal way.

        With shaolin salute,
        -Chris

        Comment


        • #5
          In your 2nd example there is no right or wrong. Right or wrong as good or bad have to be seen in relation to something. If you want to make your father happy, it is good not to cut the bushes. If you want to make your mother happy, it is good to cut the bushes.
          However you decide your action has a consequence: father happy & mother sad, or mother happy and father.

          When you refer to karma I suppose you mean effects from previous life(s). I further suppose it is not karma what bothers you, but reincarnation. Because if there is reincarnation, karma is not too unlogical.

          Example:
          On day x you help somebody out. On day x+1 you meet him again and he is happy to see you and might invite you for lunch as to give thanks for your help. Because the memory about yesterdays event is available to your mind, it is logical to you that lunch and your help are related. Let's say it was not sleep what separated both incidents but death. In your life x+1 you experience a random dude inviting you for lunch. There is still a connection but your conscious mind has no evidence of the incident in life x or about life x at all.
          You don't know the incident and you don't know you had a past life. Therefore for you in life x, karma, a past life's action which affects your current, is not logical.
          Last edited by Fräänz; 18 April 2016, 01:19 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear Jussi,

            I am sure Sifu Markus already gave you excellent advice considering your questions.

            This is my answer: it is very simple. Karma is a law, much like gravity. It does not matter if you believe in it or not, it works for all of us none the less.
            If you do good deeds, ones that bring benefit for you as well as others, you do good.

            In the case of drugs, as they are harmful to both your body and mind, it is not good to help your friend get drugs. As it is not good to use them yourself.
            It is more beneficial to decline your friends request: to him/her and yourself.

            In the second question, it would be a good option to tell your parents that "I would love to help you. When you decide what is the best thing to do (to cut the bushes or not), let me know, and I'll happily help you."

            As in our Shaolin practice, it is better to not worry, not intellectualize and just enjoy your practice.


            Best wishes,

            Nessa
            Nessa Kahila
            Shaolin Nordic Finland
            Instructor
            nessa@shaolin-nordic.com

            www.shaolin-nordic.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Jussi!

              Great questions/topic - really interesting. Here are my thoughts.

              Good and evil are subjective to the intellectual mind. As you clearly noted, a "good" side and a "bad" side can be justified for just about any situation. War is a really good example of this, as many people justify the killing as something good (for a good reason), but one really cannot deny that killing is the opposite of good. So, while the intellectual mind may justify something as "good", that does not make it truly good.

              What I try to do, and what I would suggest you also try, is to stop thinking about what is good (or bad), and begin to notice how the thought, action, or words make you feel. Does it create a pleasant feeling (joy, excitement, comfort, eagerness, etc.) or does it create an unpleasant feeling (anger, resentment, jealously, sick feeling in stomach, dread, unease, etc.)? In this way, you can be sure that you are on the correct path. Doing, thinking, and saying things that are truly "good" will make you feel pleasant. Doing, thinking, and saying things that are "bad" will make you feel unpleasant.

              This will also help to remove any unnecessary worry about Karma. Doing, thinking, and saying "good" things is the best way to make yourself feel good/pleasant in the present. And that's also how you would build good Karma. If Karma exists, you're on the right path. If Karma does not exist, your daily life is still a happy experience! It's a win-win!

              -Matt

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear Jussi,
                Contemplating Q1 for discussion and practical purposes:

                -Would he benefit from ongoing Drugs?
                -Would You benefit taking them to him?
                -Would you feel Taking them to him feels right for you?
                -When he falls back from his 'High' would the pattern repeat?

                Your friend is likely to have 'No' benefits from the high, the only thing he will get is a drug induced state that does not serve him in his life. You of course would then be linked to his addiction on some level and personally I would refrain from taking the Drugs and encourage a different path where possible. The more the pattern is repeated the more your involvement and ongoing spiraling poor habits are created. If you friend is not open to other beneficial options it would be best to protect yourself from getting involved or ask someone, perhaps a professional with experience in these matters who maybe able to assist in communicating with them.

                Here are a couple of useful Karma Answers on Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit's website;



                Check Q4 on
                A selection of answers provided by Sifu Wong Kiew Kit to questions asked by the public on Shaolin Kungfu, Chi Kung, Taijiquan and Zen


                Best Wishes
                James



                Originally posted by Jussi Pasanen View Post
                Example 1: If a friend asks me to get him drugs, am I doing the right thing because he will be happy to get his dose, or am I doing wrong because he will feel bad when he comes down from the high?
                Last edited by James L; 30 May 2016, 11:19 PM.
                Aaahhhhh!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Some more thoughts and intellectualization about good and bad:
                  Your state of mind and intentions are very important. You could view good and bad as "beneficial for" and "not beneficial for", but for whom? Maybe it is not possible that everybody gets the benefits, so you have to choose.
                  You can do something with a bad intention, but it turns to be beneficial for another person.
                  You can do something with a good intention, but it turns out not to be beneficial for the other person.
                  What about your benefit then?

                  What is a benefit? Giving frog food to a frog is beneficial to the frog. Feeding it to a human, it might not be. If others receive benefits from you (benefits in their view), they will feel obliged to return them (hopefully in your view, but more certain in their view (like a cat giving you a dead mouse as a present ). So by giving you are also receiving. So goodness attracts goodness and evilness begets evilness. Like looking in a mirror, you will see the outside world as you see yourself and it will treat you as you treat yourself and others.

                  About your friends drug problem: What do you think is beneficial / more beneficial to him? Why do you think it is beneficial to him? What do you think in his situation and position he thinks is beneficial to him? What does he think is beneficial for him? Why does he think this way?
                  Making your friend happy is beneficial to him, you might think. Getting him off the drugs, you might think, is beneficial, too. What if getting him off drugs makes him angry in the short run. So is the anger now beneficial or not beneficial? Does it still work then? Is it the right method?

                  What do you want the outcome to look like, in what direction shall things change? Then you can take the actions leading to your desired result. If you do not know what to do, you might not understand which actions lead to which results. But if we knew and understand everything, it would be a bit boring, right? Life is about exploring and growing, so don`t be afraid to try something. you can ponder a long time what is "right" and what is "wrong" to do, but in the end you might have to make a decision anyways. By not making a decision a decision is made for you, but then you cannot decide about the direction of this decision.

                  So what about good and bad? Do something and see what works, what doesn`t and where it takes you.
                  But remember: Your intentions and state of mind are important. Why important and for whom and for what?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Jussi,

                    interesting questions!

                    1. don´t buy him drugs
                    2. let the garden owners find a conclusion first

                    Best regards,
                    Anton.
                    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                    Anton Schmick
                    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                    shaolinwahnamchina.com
                    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                    http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                    Comment

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