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Deviating from the fundamental skills of Shaolin Chi Kung: 10 Qs to the Grandmaster

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  • #16
    Thank you to The Fully Alive Team and to our dear Sifu .


    In Shaolin Wahnam we strive to live a morally upright life and this may be achieved by the application of chi kung skills in daily life guided by a moral code ( The 10 Shaolin Laws) : it is an intrinsic metamorphosis because of the innate nature of acquired chi kung skills that develop our morality from inside out and not because of an external authority preaching morals into the fibers of our sinews .

    Some skilled chi kung practitioners ( even advanced ones ) deviate seriously ( eg become black magicians or betray the trust and destroy the life of innocent people ) because chi kung skills and moral laws alone may not be enough to prevent serious deviation.I have heard Sages taught that if we aspire to the higher end of the moral spectrum or spiritual cultivation , the guiding hand of a great Master ( ie systematic teaching , exemplary life , knowledge impartation , skills transmission , exuding inspiration , generosity and moral uprightness of the Sifu ) and Divine Grace are the other essential factors for success.

    Now , some of the fundamental chi kung skills are : Relaxing , One-pointed mind , No-mind , Smile from the Heart , Generating energy flow , Self manifested chi flow , Massaging internal organs , Sending chi to body parts , Cosmic shower , Building pearl of energy at dantian , Developing mental clarity and internal force , Pulsating with cosmos , Merging with cosmos .

    But some skills ( eg Cosmic shower or CS ) possibly have lesser positive impact on the moral fibre then other skills ( eg Merging with cosmos or MC ) .Fictional example : if an incognito narcissistic serial rapist aspiring to kick the serious bad habit joins Shaolin Wahnam , he or she may have a better chance to succeed with the help of MC then with CS , because the former skill brings the awesome experience of cosmic one-ness with all sentient beings ( one wouldn’t want to ravage one’s self , right ?) as opposed to the latter skill where increased energy may be focused at lower dantians leading to increased libido/carnal terrestrial desires ( hence a relapse of bad habit) .

    We have heard of the saying “ Walk the Talk” : talking is generally easier then walking . Taking the talk further : some walks/deeds are easier done then others . For most of us , some of The 10 Shaolin Laws laws are relatively easier to walk in daily life then others : eg “Forbidden to rape ” is easier then “ Required to be wise “ or “Obliged to achieve everlasting peace “.Stated in another way : it is easier to deviate from some aspects of the Law then other aspects.

    Question : To prevent serious deviation and additionally , to enable us to walk the more difficult aspects of The 10 Shaolin Laws , which ( if all things are equal ie moral laws, guiding master , grace ) fundamental chi kung skill or skills should we develop and deepen ?
    Damian Kissey
    Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
    www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

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    • #17
      Interesting Questions

      Dear Family Members,
      Thank you all for these great and interesting questions. Tim, Barry and I will discuss them this week and start asking Sifu to kindly respond to the ones that are chosen

      Peace

      Mark
      Sifu Mark Appleford

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      • #18
        How to overcome deviations the best way?

        Many thanks to everyone involved for the opportunity to ask this question. It means a lot to me.

        How to overcome deviations the best way possible? Is there a generic guideline for recovering what was lost, and what factors might contribute for more particular deviation issues that will require specific remedies? Are there instances when we might need to forgo some sense of satisfaction and enjoyment in order to purify ourselves? I am thinking that our limited egos might become obstacles in healing when we want an outcome, even a good one, to manifest too willfully. For the sake of convenience, I think it would be fruitful to consider deviations both in morality and qigong: how do they differ and how they affect the exponent in a similar manner?

        Comment


        • #19
          What Do You Thinks

          Dear Family Members,
          As this is an opportunity to explore and ask questions, I would like you to place your own thoughts on the questions selected on this thread. I have two reasons for this

          1) We often know more than we realise or we can be wildly of the answer. By sharing your thoughts and opinions on this thread it helps Sifu gain more insight into how to answer the questions for the greater good of the community and the individua
          2) By sharing out opinions and thoughts can help people open a path of reflection on there own practice that they may have not considered, especially those who have no easy access to an instructor.

          Please remember this is not an exam and about right or wrong answer, it is more about transparency so you can get the best and most useful answer for the practice.

          Also we are very lucky that some of the questions will be answered by Master Magnolia in the something exciting thread....



          Here are the three questions that I have chosen to start the answer thread

          By Omar

          - What are the root cause(s) of deviation, and what is the best way to guard against it?
          - what is the difference between a deviation and a blockage?
          - is it possible or desirable to never deviate? Or should we simply recognise that, from time to time, tendencies that could grow to become deviations may begin to arise as part of our development process and that we should just try to get better at becoming aware of them sooner and correcting or letting go of them before they become big and serious?

          The fourth question will be put to Master Magnolia

          Peace

          Mark
          Last edited by Mark A; 9 February 2016, 03:46 PM.
          Sifu Mark Appleford

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          • #20
            Clarification

            If anyone has any more questions they want to ask and needs clarification about which thread to ask it in

            The Developing and Deepening the fundamental skills of Chi Kung thread is for those questions around "what are the fundamental skills", what are the best ways of practising them and how to improve in them.

            The Realising and manifesting the fundamental skills of Chi Kung thread is around how to best get the outcomes (realising) from the fundamental skills. Maybe, for people who have a particular objective in mind and want to know what skills it might be most useful to develop and/or how best to train.

            The Applying skills thread is about how to use the fundamental skills in everyday life.

            This one, the "Deviating" thread is about how to notice the signs it might be happening and/or how to avoid doing so.
            With metta,

            Barry
            Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
            Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
            Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
            UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
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            • #21
              Defintion

              Hey Barry,
              Thank you for making that clearer, I am sure that will help minimise any confusion that may potentially arise

              Peace

              Mark

              PS I am still awaiting Sifu's answer, but I know that it is Chinese New Year so he will be enjoying the time with his family
              Sifu Mark Appleford

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              • #22
                Highlighting

                Hey Folks,
                I just wanted to highlight one of the feature's that Fully Alive is doing with this thread , Here is a post I put on the Realising and Manifesiting Q=A

                Discussion and Filtering

                Hey Matt,
                Thanks for asking the question about any potential confusion that may have arisen and I am sure that Barry's post has clarified the different topic more clearly. I would also like to you to be aware that there is is a difference in these threads than other past one's.


                The Fully Alive team are going to screen any questions and pass them onto Sifu to answer. One of the reasons we are doing this is so that we can allow an overall understanding to emerge that can help students realise the difference between applying, realising, manifesting and deviating and how there may be an overall lap.

                Part of our aim is to let students know some of the outcome'a that may be experienced directly at the Summer Camp

                Peace

                Mark
                Sifu Mark Appleford

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                • #23
                  Sifu's first answer

                  Dear Family Members,
                  Sifu has kindly given the answer to the first question selected for this thread. It is quite enlightening and may create some more questions................please ask if it does


                  Enjoy

                  Mark

                  Question 1

                  What is the root cause of deviation, and what is the best way to guard against it?

                  What is the difference between a deviation and a blockage?

                  Is it possible or desirable to never deviate? Or should we simply recognize that, from time to time, tendencies that could grow to become deviations may begin to arise as part of our development process and that we should just try to get better at becoming aware of them sooner and correcting or letting go of them before they become big and serious?

                  Omar


                  Answer

                  There are two dimensions to the meaning of deviation. One, it is practicing an art but not getting the result the art is meant to give. Two, it is practicing an art and getting adverse effect instead of benefit.

                  In the first dimension, practicing chi kung is meant to give good health. Someone practices chi kung for some time, but he does not have good health. So, his is an example of deviation.

                  In the second dimension, a practitioner may not be sick to start with. But after practicing chi kung for some time, he worries unnecessarily. This is an example of deviation.

                  Let us take some examples from kungfu, any style of kungfu. A primary aim of practicing kungfu is to be able to defend oneself., but after practicing for some time he still cannot defend himself. This is an example of deviation in the first meaning.

                  Practicing kungfu is to give us benefit, but instead of benefit, irrespective of whether he can defend himself, a practitioner sustains injuries instead. This is an example of deviation in the second meaning.

                  It is actually shocking, though many people may not realize it, that outside our school many chi kung and kungfu practitioners experience deviation of the first or the second type, or both. We are indeed very lucky that we don’t face deviation. A main reason is that we understand the philosophy of our arts.

                  Not having deviation should actually be the norm. In the past, practitioners might take a longer time than us to achieve result, but they did achieve result. Those who practiced chi kung would have good health, vitality and longevity. Those who practiced kungfu would be able to defend themselves.

                  Today, these arts have been so grossly debased, that having deviation, especially those practicing martial arts, is the norm!

                  In Chinese the modern term for deviation is “bian cha”, which literally means “sideway-mistakes”. The classical term is more frightening, and is “zou fo ru mo”, which literally means “escape of fire, and entrance of monster”. The deviations sustained by modern martial artists, like broken bones and damaged internal organs, are more like “monsters” than “sideway-mistakes”.
                  Sifu Mark Appleford

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                  • #24
                    Part 2 of Question

                    Part to of the First Question

                    Questions on Deviation -- Q1 -- Part 2

                    The root cause of deviation, regardless of whether the deviation is in the first or the second meaning, is not following instructions of competent teachers. Often the failure to follow instructions is unintentional, like students tensing their muscles when they are supposed to be relaxed. But sometimes this is due to students trying to be smarter than their teachers, like students adding unnecessary training material to what has been taught.

                    This trying to be smarter than their teachers is not uncommon in other schools, where teachers themselves are incompetent and their teaching usually do not bring the results practicing the arts should give. But even in our schools, where good results are commonplace, some students try to be smarter than their teachers. For example, they have been told not to worry, not to intellectualize and to enjoy their practice, but they still worry whether their practice will give then the best results they want.

                    The best way to guard against deviation is to respectfully follow the instructions of competent teachers who have shown good results. This isn’t a problem in our school, but it may be a big problem in most other schools. Hence, in most other schools, students first have to find out whether the teachers are competent, i.e. they can provide the results practicing the art will give.

                    A deviation is practicing an art wrongly. A blockage is where energy is not flowing smoothly.

                    A practitioner may or may not have a blockage before he starts his practice. If he already has a blockage, like he has an infected disease, wrong practice will make his blockage worse, i.e. his infected disease becomes more severe. If he does not have a blockage, like he does not suffer from an infected disease, wrong practice may cause one, i.e.. he may develop an infected disease.

                    A person who has a blockage may or may not practice chi kung or kungfu. If he practices chi kung or kungfu correctly, clearing the blockage, i.e. becoming well, is a matter of course. He can also clear the blockage by other means, like taking medication.

                    Some people may consider deviation as having a mental blockage. It is a matter of semantics. They know that they should follow competent instructions to avoid deviation, but somehow they are mentally blocked and do not follow the instructions.

                    It is possible and desirable to never deviate, though minor deviation is not uncommon. Just follow the teacher’s instructions.

                    If the teacher asks him to practice at about 30% of his potential, a wise student trusting that his teacher knows best, will practice at about 30% of his potential, which may not be the same as another student’s potential. How does he know it is about 30% of his potential? He depends on his own subjective judgment. If he, for example, aims to practice his best, he is not following the teacher’s instructions.

                    A wise student may recognize that once awhile despite following his teacher’s instructions respectfully, he may still deviate, in which case he will check himself and revert back to his teacher’s instructions. If he finds that he deviates despite following the teacher’s instructions, he will then consult his teacher. But this is different from expecting that deviation is a norm.

                    At the risk of appearing to be arrogant, in most other schools, deviation as defined as deviating from the expected result of practicing an art, is the norm, though most of their teachers and students may not realize it. In our school deriving the expected result of practicing an art, is the norm. This is because we know what result is to be expected and how to practice the art to get the result. We shall put these basic knowledge and skills into practice in the coming UK Summer Camp.

                    <End>
                    Sifu Mark Appleford

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                    • #25
                      Perhaps I am too late to register a question with Sifu, but maybe I can make a comment anyway, perhaps get a bit of discussion, and sort of try to guess part of the answer anyway. The question is related both to my recent questions regarding feeling "charged all the time" and related to Matt's question about physical training, some quotes of which here:

                      Originally posted by Matt F. View Post
                      And with this, comes enjoyment for Water Buffalo training - lifting heavy things, pushing stuff around, running fast, etc.
                      Originally posted by Matt F. View Post
                      So, I am left conflicted, trying to find a balance between two seemingly opposing paradigms. I love both of them, and have experienced the pro's and con's of life with only one and not the other. Without a doubt, my life is better with genuine Chi Kung and Kungfu. But I would also say that my life is better with physical exercise/Water Buffalo training.
                      Originally posted by Matt F. View Post
                      Or is it perfectly OK to live fully, doing the things that excite me and bring me enjoyment, and I simply need to stop worrying about it?
                      I too sometimes enjoy physical work or action, or at least I used to. I believed on the one hand that this might hinder my chi flow, so I too stopped it for a long time, but then later I found I could still have chi flow and relaxation. I thought to myself, though I have a sedentary job for now, many others have physical jobs, depending on the economy I could myself someday (back at a time in my country when builders were earning more than office workers before the economic crash).

                      Also I heard Sifu tell us that as Kungfu and Chi Kung instructors, some of the lessons he gave us in terms of both chi flow and the mind, could be applied to for example top sports people - he thought we could help some of the sportsmen in our country to excel, with some of this knowledge! Again, I thought to myself, well we obviously wouldn't ask THOSE people to give up their physical activity, it is their livelihood and their joy!

                      And of course Sifu says that Chi Kung and chi flow will help us in anything we do, presumably including these strenuous physical activities.

                      I found, for example recently when I sparred with a boxer, that though it was very demanding, I wasn't as unfit as I thought I would be. (I thought I would be unfit because I know how strenuous their training is compared to ours, and I don't do any of their kind of training at the minute). I know we spar for an hour or more on courses, but the boxers spar with a much higher intensity, and I was out of breath and knackered after a couple of rounds, but not as much as I thought I would be, and no more than the boxer (I think), who does lots of that kind of training and sparring.

                      This where I relate it to the "charged all the time" comments. As well as being knackered at the time, I was sore and stiff for a few days after the sparring, but I often get days when I am stiff and sore anyway, and when old injuries and conditions play up. This has improved a lot in the past couple of years in general. But on the days when I am really, really charged, as far as I can tell it all goes away. And on those days I feel like I could climb a mountain / lift a tonne weight / run a marathon etc.

                      So I guess what I am asking, or hypothesising is, when we reach this charged state, or if/when I ever manage to achieve it all the time, will we be able to handle all that strenuous physical activity, even though we don't specifically train for it?

                      Just as one final example, when I did Xingyi in Canada with Sifu last year, after the course I befriended some boxers and went to watch a tournament with them. I had no aches or pains, I felt really powerful, and I felt like I wished I was fighting myself that day! Maybe I would have changed my mind if I got the chance lol, and most of the time I don't feel that way, but it was a great feeling!

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                      • #26
                        Dear Mark,

                        Thanks for opening and facilitating this thread, which I am following with great interest. It does not matter for how long one has been learning, I am always in happy (though not blind) awe of what Sifu has to teach.

                        It is actually shocking, though many people may not realize it, that outside our school many chi kung and kungfu practitioners experience deviation of the first or the second type, or both. We are indeed very lucky that we don’t face deviation. A main reason is that we understand the philosophy of our arts.
                        The clarity with which Sifu spells out the path for each of us, by teaching about the philosophy of these arts is something many other masters do not take the time to ensure. I do not know whether it is because they themselves do not have a clear picture of the philosophy of their system, or whether it is because for some reason they deem it better for the student not to have a clear picture of the map. Maybe they think that giving the map to an ambitious student will cause the student to surpass or outdo the master. I am very glad that I don't have to spend any thought or time worrying about such matters because our Sifu, being an ongoing, living example of his arts, cannot be surpassed, and because Sifu has taught me that if I follow the clear map (philosophy) of our arts, then the results speak for themselves.

                        Not having deviation should actually be the norm. In the past, practitioners might take a longer time than us to achieve result, but they did achieve result. Those who practiced chi kung would have good health, vitality and longevity. Those who practiced kungfu would be able to defend themselves.
                        How wonderfully simple and yet profound these statements are. It also crosses my mind that there might be some kungfu practitioners who do not practice chi kung, who would therefore be able to defend themselves but not be healthy, full of vitality or have longevity. It is interesting that being a kungfu practitioner and chi kung practitioner do not necessarily go hand in hand. Thankfully, in our school, they do.

                        In Chinese the modern term for deviation is “bian cha”, which literally means “sideway-mistakes”. The classical term is more frightening, and is “zou fo ru mo”, which literally means “escape of fire, and entrance of monster”. The deviations sustained by modern martial artists, like broken bones and damaged internal organs, are more like “monsters” than “sideway-mistakes”.
                        Indeed, the translations of the word for 'deviation' are strong - especially the classical one. But Sifu's explanation that follows of 'broken bones and damaged internal organs' being examples of 'escape of fire, and entrance of monster' is both clarifying and reassuring.

                        Looking forward to reading more!

                        Heartfelt thanks to Sifu - shaolin salute,

                        Emiko
                        Emiko Hsuen
                        www.shaolinwahnam.jp
                        www.shaolinwahnam.ca

                        INTENSIVE & SPECIAL COURSES -- PENANG 2018
                        Taught by Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit
                        4th generation successor of the Southern Shaolin Monastery
                        Small and Big Universe Course: Nov 21 to 25
                        Becoming a Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu Practitioner: Nov 26 to Dec 2
                        Cultivating Spirit Nourishing Energy: Dec 2 to Dec 8
                        Intensive Chi Kung Course: Dec 9 to Dec 13
                        To apply, send email to: secretary@shaolin.org

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                        • #27
                          Thanks Tim, Barry & Mark for raising this subject. I hope the question makes the filter to recieve an answer from our amazing Grandmaster.

                          With regards to Spritual deviation, would Sigung kindly explain to us how it manifests through one or many lifetimes.
                          How would it show it self so one can recognise the symptoms and then manage it during ones lifetime?

                          Often I find the mind plays a big part in deviation, it is contantly busy and bombarded with thoughts and other ideas other than spritual practice.

                          Would this be considered an indication of Spiritual deviation?


                          Thanks all
                          James
                          Aaahhhhh!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Confidence vs. Arrogance

                            Dear Sifu,

                            Sifu has spoken and written of the heart of confidence. What is the relationship between confidence and its counterpart, arrogance? Is it important to guard against arrogance, or is it just another kind of confidence?

                            Thank you, Sifu, and thank you Barry, Tim and Mark sihengs.

                            Yours,

                            Charles
                            Charles David Chalmers
                            Brunei Darussalam

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Dear Sifu,

                              I would respectfully like to second Charles' question and learn more about the 'heart of confidence'. I do not know if 'arrogance' is related to it, but if it is, I would like to learn about that too.

                              Thank you, Sifu.

                              Shaolin salute,

                              Emiko
                              Emiko Hsuen
                              www.shaolinwahnam.jp
                              www.shaolinwahnam.ca

                              INTENSIVE & SPECIAL COURSES -- PENANG 2018
                              Taught by Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit
                              4th generation successor of the Southern Shaolin Monastery
                              Small and Big Universe Course: Nov 21 to 25
                              Becoming a Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu Practitioner: Nov 26 to Dec 2
                              Cultivating Spirit Nourishing Energy: Dec 2 to Dec 8
                              Intensive Chi Kung Course: Dec 9 to Dec 13
                              To apply, send email to: secretary@shaolin.org

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Many thanks to Sifu for answering the questions I posted - always a great honour. I really benefitted from his responses - as Emiko Sije has already posted, there were many subtle insights in Sifu's response that have already significantly increased my understanding. I am grateful for this and look forward to more illuminating answers to other questions!

                                Shaolin salute!

                                Omar

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