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  • Moral Question

    Dear Family and Friends,

    Imagine:

    A person has knowledge in the area of some collectible items--say furniture, or dolls, or antique sporting goods.

    That person sees an item for sale at a flea market, and determines that it is very much underpriced--say ten times (or more) underpriced.

    It is clear that the seller does not know the true value of the item.

    First Question:

    Is it wrong for that person to purchase that grossly underpriced item, thus grabbing a great bargain?


    Second Question:

    What are the factors that determine the morality of the actions taken?


    Third:

    There are, of course, more--perhaps better--questions to be asked, and the questions and subsequent answers are meant as exploratory, rather than definitive. Feel free to contribute, as you see fit.


    I very much look forward to people's answers on this topic.


    Yours,
    Charles David Chalmers
    Brunei Darussalam

  • #2
    Karma and business

    Pricing material goods (or services) can never endow them with absolute worth: situations change, and the market equilibria for "mutually beneficial deals" cycle up and down according to the conditions of the society. For example, when there is growing demand and short supply, then it is natural that goods are priced up to fit the needs of those who are the most interested in investing their financial effort.

    There basically are two kinds of goods: material ones that wane in value as we diminish in our physical joys due to age and suffering, and spiritual ones that grow in value due to passing time and the unbelievable success in our spiritual cultivation. As faithful practicioners of Shaolin Arts we have had the great opportunity to learn, now we understand the actual pricelessness of Sigung's (or Sifu's) charity although there has been a material price tag involved with every lesson.

    In my humble opinion, it is a waste of time to speculate with the material worth of things. Just smile from your heart and go with the flow. It is likely that you are getting a fair deal when your gut sense prompts you, and if not, then the other party will have had a great success which can be great too. But if we want to escape the karmic conditioning, then the question "who wins" becomes a silly ideal.

    1) All sellers (of collectibles) are aware of the basic market laws: you may or may not get the ideal outcome from your transaction and you enter the market out of your free will, even if the circumstances around you might be very compelling. When I am making business with anyone, I actually pay more interest with whom I am dealing with rather than the prices themselves: there is usually very little price variation in our highly competitive Western societies, so with each transaction you are actually investing your time and effort more in the merchant than the good itself! Business can never be detached from people, hence I dislike the anonymizing power of currency. Get to know the people if it is not unreasonably complicated or faceless bidding that goes on, and I can almost guarantee that you will be more pleased with the deal than just grabbing and running.

    2) I would just say that it is completely up to skillful means if you wish to share wisdom and compassion for someone's lack of business experience. It is said that enlightened Bodhisattvas would sometimes take human guises and beg for favors or ask for a penny to establish karmic connections with people, hence giving them priceless opportunities to ask for return. If you think you have greatly benefitted from someone, it is certainly prudent to offer even better proposals in return, such as inviting them to witness the Shaolin Arts. This is my view of Karma 101.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by understanding View Post
      investing your time and effort more in the merchant than the good itself! [...] Get to know the people if it is not unreasonably complicated or faceless bidding that goes on, and I can almost guarantee that you will be more pleased with the deal than just grabbing and running.
      A wonderful answer, with many fine points! Focusing on the relationship established and the people involved is something that I will take away from this?

      Now for other Thoughts, Stories, Questions, Confusions, Comments...

      Yrs.

      CC
      Charles David Chalmers
      Brunei Darussalam

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello Charles Sihing,

        I haven't been on the forum in a while. This is a great question.

        I don't have a definite answer. Does anyone? I can relate a story.

        I saw a very old barge winch on the side of the road outside of a retired shipwright's shop about ten years ago. I like old tools A LOT. I called the shipwright (a man I had never met), and he offered it to me for $200 dollars. I suggested $500, because that was what it was worth to me. After some discussion, the shipwright agreed. Later, a couple of friends said I was crazy.

        I can't recall my exact reasoning or feelings for offering more money. First was, as I said, the value of the winch to me was at least $500 dollars. A big part I know was that I greatly respect the elder shipwright. More than anything though, it just felt right.

        An interesting thing happened this year. The shipwright, who is know in his 90's, had a big sale of all of his tools. I wasn't around for the sale, but heard about it some weeks later. I stopped by and introduced myself, and saw that virtually all of the shipwright's tools were gone. I didn't mention the winch I bought a decade earlier, as the shipwright is very hard of hearing and had troubles understanding me.

        I bought a few tools for myself, and one for a friend in another town. This time the elder shipwright charged me fair market value, possibly even a little on the high side. As I was walking out, the shipwright stopped me and started asking questions. We talked for a while, me yelling answers back so he could understand at least some of my answers. Then he asked if I could use a couple of house jacks—huge mechanical lifting jacks. I'd been looking for one for years. He pointed to a corner, I moved some things, and he gave me the jacks, refusing to take any money. He apologized for not oiling the jacks the last time he used them 40 or 50 years ago and wished me well.

        So, to answer your questions roundaboutly, brother Charles: I think that when we're truly honest with ourselves, we know what's right and what's wrong. As a footnote, I should add that being truly honest with oneself takes some practice, and a fair amount of mental clarity.

        Beyond that, I'm not very good at defining morality!
        .

        Comment


        • #5
          Hey, old school chum!

          Good story! I like me an Alaskan yarn!

          (For those who don't know, Zach and I went to the University of Victoria back in the early 90's, and only later became Shaolin Wahnam brothers, independently. )


          Yeah, you may have been crazy offering more than twice his asking price, but personally, being crazy has always been an ambition of mine, and I like your kind of crazy! It seems that your story illustrates what Understanding was saying about the greater importance of human relationships in material transactions.

          On that note, I should say that I myself have been buying and selling music gear and guitars in the last little while as a beginner in this guitar business. The highlight of my transactions has always been the people I meet, both in my home and in theirs! I can only imagine what an old Alaskan shipwright must be like! Anyway, I'm well-joyed to get your response.

          One day soon I will be within sailing distance of your homestead; I trust you will have a sauna ready by then. hahahhaha!
          Charles David Chalmers
          Brunei Darussalam

          Comment


          • #6
            morals vs virtue incl common-sense

            Dear Charles,
            Sipakgung guess,
            words may have different meanings to different people. Morality obviously means something good to you. For me personally ‘morals’ are not something good. For my taste ‘morals’ are a predetermined fixed set of rules of how to behave and most times ‘somebody else’ made the rules up and the whole strategy of an individual is ‘to comply’ or ‘to follow the rules’. Many times this implies also the world-view that there is a judge somehow, be it ‘up there’ or ‘public opinion’ or a preacher or parent or otherwise, in the end an individual sort of builds a judging instance in his own psychology, be it called super-ego or whatever. The rules may not really be all good. And the responsibility of the individual there is just ‘to comply properly’, but he may not feel responsible for his real actions and intentions. He may find he’s ‘not guilty’ which also means that ‘guilt’ plays a big role within that mindset.
            To act intuitively out of a sense of honour including kindness is something I call virtue instead of morality, but this may just be semantics.
            Now, I find that common sense also is a virtue. Funnily, my past experience, also within so-called christian communities, but also in western society with judges and functionaries is, that the more ‘officially moral’ somebody is, the less common-sense he’s got left. And I saw many cases where people handled cases out of the wish to act ‘christian’ and ‘moral’ completely unfair and unwise and without any common sense, whereas ‘unchristian’ people and such not caring about the moral side handled these cases or situations much more fairly and kindly in a ‘live and let live’ manner and with compassion. Also, I found that ‘moral’ people many times find a ‘no deal for any side’ or ‘no-profit for any side’ or ‘everybody’s a looser’ or ‘equal poverty for all’ solution a ‘good thing’, maybe because they find their minds confusion about their do’s and dont’s more important then what the other party or contractor factually communicates on a human level.
            So, such a situation as described can only be handled intuitively I guess on a case to case basis. But the description does not give many details. But apart from morals some common-sense may be needed as well as experience in order to see what options there are for practically handling such a situation.
            The buyer in this case may have gained ‘his advantage’ only through years of training, investigation, learning and may have spent a lot of money for this including maybe losses on earlier deals, let’s call this an investment. He may have learned different languages and in order to deal on different markets may have to live or travel to different places resulting in costs. So, the mentioned profit may be seen as the logical or deserved pay-off of his investments.
            But common sense tells me that prices can fluctuate and a deal or profit is only made when it’s really realized, so there’s the possibility that it does not make the expected 10times in a re-sale.
            Common-sense also tells me that the seller may not see the buyer as immoral at all if he buys the good for the announced price. Maybe he would find the buyer unfriendly if he would not bargain with him depending on the customs of that country. So he may already have announced a price higher than he expects. Maybe no one else would buy the good as only ‘our buyer’ can see the value of the good which would leave the seller with no deal or no business at all. This also shows that it’s not the supposed higher price on other markets alone that would make more profit but the know-how and experience of ‘our buyer’; even if the seller would be told about higher prices on other markets he may not be in the position to go there and sell there.
            Furthermore, common-sense tells me, there are more options for a solution. The buyer can immediately pay a higher price. Or, given he returns to this place could ask the seller for his address and first resell the good to see what profit he really gets and then give the buyer a share of the profit on top of the price at the time of the buyer’s return. Or if this is not possible, the buyer could donate any ‘surplus profit’ he feels he’s making for good purposes. Apart from other solutions that is, like not paying upfront at all but instead making a contract to sell it somewhere else like an agent and sharing the profits – but solutions in this direction most likely are nothing the seller would agree to most likely ‘amongst unknown parties’.
            Thank you for this interesting thread question,
            Lol,
            Michael

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MichaelS View Post
              words may have different meanings to different people.
              Hi Michael, thanks for your interesting and in-depth reply. Yes, my original question is a word-game of sorts, but it is not really a question of semantics--we could replace the words with others and still get the same idea. I'm not formally trained in philosophy, so there may be schools, or even consensus about what certain words mean.

              Morality obviously means something good to you.
              To be simple: for me, morality means doing good so yes.

              The rules may not really be all good.
              This is a very important point. Following rules does not come close to ensuring ethical/moral/virtuous/good behaviour.

              I generally follow rules, or laws when I am able, and I break them when I must. (Again, I simplify; it is not a hard and fast rule, just an ad hoc way of explaining to students, and myself.)

              I like that you have introduced scenarios in which the person did well, and did good, to buy the product at the low price.



              Interestingly, I think it is a bugbear, a bit of a taboo, to declare one action, or system, or way of being, to be more moral/virtuous than another. Think of the word "judgemental" in its negative connotations. Yet, it seems pretty clear that people can practice being good, and as a result become better than others, in matters of doing good, being good, more virtuous.

              Without attempting to be definitive or comprehensive, I will answer my own question,"Is it wrong?"

              I don't think it is wrong. But I do think that there are more and less skillful, more or less moral, ways of dealing with the situation.

              I will answer my second question, "What are the factors that determine the morality?"

              The most important is the mind factor, which, of course, I learned from my Sifu. For example, if the purchaser believes s/he is doing something good, than the action is more likely to have positive outcomes. If the mindset of the buyer is one of (for example) greed, and a desire to trick the buyer, then it is unlikely something good will come from it.

              There is a good Roald Dahl story about a scenario like this, an antiques dealer who finds a rare and extremely valuable piece of furniture and proceeds to purchase it very cheaply. If anyone is interested I could dig it up on the internet.

              Best Wishes,

              Charles Sipakgung (?)
              Last edited by Charles David; 1 January 2016, 09:07 PM. Reason: comma
              Charles David Chalmers
              Brunei Darussalam

              Comment


              • #8
                A Valuable Teaching from Sigung Ho

                Reading Sifu's wonderful The Way of the Master I come across a most apt quote from Sigung Ho:

                Whatever you do, you must have a clear consciousness. When a person does evil, he may cheat heaven. He may cheat earth. But he can never cheat his own consciousness.
                (p. 237)

                With Respect to Sifu and Past Masters,

                Humbly,

                Charles
                Charles David Chalmers
                Brunei Darussalam

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