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  • Shaolin chi kung rocks!

    I decided that I want to make my very 1st post here, but realized I actually registered back in 2008, but never really understood the art back then! It's going to be a real long post. Is this forum still alive like before?? I'm practicing alone without a teacher, don't even have Wong Sifu's books! It took 8 years, EIGHT YEARS to understand the already given out secret, "Smile from the heart", "think of nothing", "don't worry", and "don't intellectualize".

    So, I've been practicing Lifting the Sky together with Pushing Mountains for 3 weeks, and I've been getting weird sensations. After doing the forms in the meditative(chikung) state, I do get the Swaying Willow effect, on some occasions with involuntary shaking of arms and shoulder, the waist wanting to turn around, bending to the right too. So I got the practice right? And during Pushing Mountain, my arms feel 'tense'/pressurized, and during the last phase with arm holding out, the skin on my arms feels something weird.

    A few days ago, I was farting all the way from morning to evening, all the way at work. It's smelly, even tough I'm pretty sure that my bowel is clear, and from yesterday until now, I got a slight discomfort in my stomach. So I did a quick search on this forum and found that it's one of the 'side effects' from the cleansing stuff. I was a bit worrying this morning, it feels like indigestion even though I didn't overeat, didn't starve myself either. I need to see if it's gone by tomorrow. I'm still recovering from my lower back injury since 2 months ago, my ligament is injured.

    Greetings to the Wahnam family,
    Kah Hoe

  • #2
    Hello Kah Hoe

    Congrats on being such a long-time forum member and for posting for the first time!

    May I ask how you learned Lifting Sky and Pushing Mountains? Did you borrow the books or have you learnt it from the website?
    How many repetitions are you doing? How long is a practice session?

    With regards to your problem, it might just be a clearing as you mention. However as you have learnt the exercises by yourself, it could also be that you are not practicing correctly. I would strongly advise you to take a class with one of our instructors or if possible attend an intensive Chi Kung course like the one upcoming in Sabah. Just to be sure!

    And you are right:
    It took 8 years, EIGHT YEARS to understand the already given out secret, "Smile from the heart", "think of nothing", "don't worry", and "don't intellectualize".
    These really are the secrets .

    I hope you are feeling better by the time you read this.

    Best regards
    Andrea
    Enjoy some Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan & Qi Gong!

    Evening Classes in Zürich
    Weekend Classes in other Swiss locations


    Website: www.taichichuan-wahnam.ch
    Facebook: www.facebook.com/Taichichuan.Wahnam.ch

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you, I think I'm feeling better now, 6.30am in the morning now.

      About my practice, I read a lot from this forum, from Wong Sifu's Q&A, from FlowingZen by Sifu Antonius, by watching Youtube videos. Well, the stuff that I learned the hard way is the breathing method and the 'gently push the sky' stuff, gathering info here and there. I made tonnes of mistakes back then and decided that "it sucks, doesn't work, goes back to my seated meditation...", but now due to my lower back injury, I can't do seated meditation, so I'm forced to attempt the Shaolin route again. What's written in FlowingZen is right, seated med. makes back pain worse, and it's too advanced for a beginner. That was because of the arrogance & power greed of a youngster, didn't take the 4 golden words seriously. I observed the practitioners in the videos, and I noticed that their face during Lifting the Sky, and the totally relaxed arm movements. So when I tried it after so many failures, I finally got a warm feeling during the 'release' of the hands back to the waist.

      The sequence:
      -Standing, Smile from The Heart, a few secs until I feel at peace with the universe.
      -Lifting the Sky, 20 reps
      -Manifested movement with mouth open for about 5 min.

      I usually combine Pushing Mountain with Lifting the Sky, and the whole session lasts from 15 to 20 mins maximum. So from many advice from this forum, it's said that one does not control the breathing, rather coordinate it with the movements. I learned this painfully, had my diaphragm muscle tensed from trying to control the breath, so I browsed the forum about breathing methods and the Sifu's here said to just let go, let it happen naturally, IIRC. From my understanding, Chi Kung has to be enjoyable, not painful. Pain= wrong! Enjoyable = Correct.

      At first I was doing 3 sessions a day, to make sure that I got the muscle memory right, and peace of mind. Tried 60 reps for Pushing Mountain! I felt sleepy and tired even though I had enough sleep, overtraining? I'm ready to reprimanded here.

      Too much words, continue on the next post.

      Comment


      • #4
        With all the pleasurable feelings after the sessions, I do believe that I got the practice correct. My mistake of the past was overemphasize on the out breath. Learned to just let go.

        A question here, any Sifu can recommend me a proper session with Lifting the Sky + Pushing Mountain together? I just can't give up either one, or separate them for day and night. I usually start out with 30-40 Pushing Mountains, stand still for a few secs, with mouth slightly open, then Lifting the Sky, 20 reps as recommended. I can't find proper info here for combined practice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello Kah Hoe,

          Firstly, I would highly recommend that you attend Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit's Intensive Chi Kung Course in Sabah in March 2016. To fully get the benefits of genuine Chi Kung practise, it is best to get the heart-to-hear transmission directly from a high-level Master of the art. You are in luck because you stay in Malaysia and there is an Intensive Chi Kung Course by Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit very soon in March of 2016!

          For your own practise currently, 30-40 pushing mountains is way too much. You are overtraining, hence why you feel sleepy and tired afterwards.

          Keep your practise simple. Two sessions a day is enough. Smiling from the heart, 10 Lifting the Sky followed by 10 Pushing Mountains and then manifested movement (about 3 minutes) is enough. Don't worry about the breathing. Just breathe normally. Your observation that the practitioners are totally relaxed while doing the movements is correct. Just relax and enjoy your practise.

          Remember the 3 Golden Rules of our practise:
          1. Don't worry
          2. Don't intellectualize
          3. Enjoy your practise

          Once more, I highly recommend that you attend Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit's Intensive Chi Kung Course in March 2016. It is a life-changing experience!

          With Shaolin Salute,
          Lee Wei Joo
          http://shaolinwahnammalaysia.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Hello Kah Hoe,

            To add, I suggest that you read here on Getting the Best Benefits From Your Training http://shaolin.org/general/benefits.html

            With Shaolin Salute,
            Lee Wei Joo
            http://shaolinwahnammalaysia.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you for the advice Sifu Wei Joo. I would wish to attend the course for sure, but the fees.... and the travelling....

              Whenever my mind feels disrupted during practice, I'll just remind myself with the Golden Rules, it really really helps, especially the "Don't think, just do it, Smile from the Heart" Throughout my seated meditation experiments for years, I tried numerous kinds of visualizations, and NONE of them beats the Shaolin method, the 4 Golden Rules. It even reminds me of the Kungfu Panda movie, the ending part about the secret kungfu scroll "the secret is... NOTHING!". Visualizations actually make stuff worse, the mind will subconsciously intellectualize.

              It's hard not to overdo stuff, I believe almost all beginners(including some Sifu's here) committed this crime in the past, because it just feels wonderful, my body already starts to rock forth and back on the first rep. I also feel some kind of weak vibration on my back, just behind my shoulders, and my arms too. I'll try to limit the practice, thanks.

              Lifting the Sky feels the best.

              Comment


              • #8
                I've just finished my 10min session as recommended, but there is one thing that has been bugging me in Pushing Mountain. I find it hard to relax my chest(diaphragm) during the hands being held out, palms facing upwards for a few seconds. My chest gets tense no matter how relaxed I am. Can I just skip the last phase and let the chi flow freely like after Lifting the Sky? Is that process only necessary for advanced Cosmos Palm training?

                Actually I don't find it ideal for me to do Lifting the Sky first before Pushing Mountain, because it's for me hard to focus on the 'Pushing' with my body rocking back & forth right after Lifting, experienced this a couple of times before, therefore changed the schedule from the very beginning. Is there any problem with this?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hello Kah Hoe,

                  Trying to add or subtract to any Chi Kung pattern, or any method whether it be seated meditation or Shaolin Kung Fu, is trying to be smarter than the master and inviting trouble.

                  For now just skip Pushing Mountains and do Lifting the Sky, gently. I repeat, do Lifting the Sky gently.

                  With Shaolin Salute,
                  Lee Wei Joo
                  http://shaolinwahnammalaysia.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Kah Hoe,

                    I really must echo the advice you've already received - for your benefit, practice only as instructed, and do not try to be smarter than the master (which means altering, adding, subtracting, etc).

                    You mentioned in your first post that you have not learned directly from an instructor and you do not have any of Sifu's books. How, then, did you learn the Chi Kung patterns that you've been practicing? If you've had no actual instruction, then it is no surprise that you're changing things, doing what you like, having odd results, etc.

                    -Matt

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LeeWeiJoo View Post
                      Hello Kah Hoe,

                      For now just skip Pushing Mountains and do Lifting the Sky, gently. I repeat, do Lifting the Sky gently.
                      There must be some misunderstanding of words, my meaning was that I was swaying back and forth right after Lifting the Sky, and therefore harder to do Pushing Mountain afterwards, the swaying makes me lose focus. I believe my Lifting the Sky is already very gentle, if not I won't get the swaying and shaking movements right? The clear diff. between taijidance vs. genuine chikung, right?

                      I've been feeling some warm sensation throughout the days ever since I started the exercise properly. When I do 'Wuji' pose, I can feel a weak vibration on my upper back and my hands. My stomach discomfort is totally gone now, the cleansing job was probably done, no more smelly farts too.

                      Dear Matt Sifu, it's perseverance that got me here, a lot of the small(important) details were already generously explained here years ago, I just need to search for the threads, read and go do it. "An iron pillar can be ground to a needle with perseverance", Chinese proverb. I appreciate your advice, thanks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dear Kah Hoe,

                        Even though the cost for the Intensive Chi Kung course may seem high, and the travel there difficult, it be returned in ten folds. After the course you would happily pay ten times more, and will actually consider the course cheap. It all depends in your perspective.

                        If you continue practicing alone, without any supervision, you may succeed. But, you will not get the best results the art is supposed to give. And at worst, you will develop serious deviations.

                        So I hope you will listen to advice given here. Perseverance is important, but so is quidance on your path.


                        Best wishes,

                        Nessa
                        Nessa Kahila
                        Shaolin Nordic Finland
                        Instructor
                        nessa@shaolin-nordic.com

                        www.shaolin-nordic.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dear Kah Hoe

                          You received a lot of excellent advice here. I think this thread will benefit others who might try to learn Chi Kung or another high-level art by themselves.

                          There must be some misunderstanding of words, my meaning was that I was swaying back and forth right after Lifting the Sky, and therefore harder to do Pushing Mountain afterwards, the swaying makes me lose focus. I believe my Lifting the Sky is already very gentle, if not I won't get the swaying and shaking movements right?
                          No this conclusion is incorrect. It is true that when you practice Chi Kung correctly you will generate a Chi Flow. And the Chi Flow might manifest as a movement such as swaying or other movements. But it is wrong to think that because you are experiencing a swaying back and forth your practice Chi Kung correctly.

                          Let me give you an analogy. Let's say you want to learn to drive a car. But you have nobody to teach you, just a car. Obviously trying this is quite risky and chances are high you will get hurt. But lets say you succeed and figure out how to get the car to move forward. Does that mean you know now how to drive a car? No - it doesn't. You might for example not yet know how to break. And without this skill, your skill of moving the car forward is actually more of a liability than an achievement.

                          Experimenting with Chi Kung and learning it by try and error is similar. You might harm yourself by trying to do so. If you are very lucky you might succeed to generate a Chi Flow or build up internal energy, but as you succeed you might miss skills that allow you to practice safely and get the full benefits. A genuine teacher will teach you in your very first lesson how to stay focused and relaxed, and how to control your Chi Flow and much more. Chi Kung is very easy and safe to learn from a genuine teacher. But experimenting with Chi Kung without guidance is definitely not safe. The advice given to you on this thread has been given out of a genuine concern. It is of course your choice to listen or to persevere.

                          Best regards
                          Andrea
                          Enjoy some Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan & Qi Gong!

                          Evening Classes in Zürich
                          Weekend Classes in other Swiss locations


                          Website: www.taichichuan-wahnam.ch
                          Facebook: www.facebook.com/Taichichuan.Wahnam.ch

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for sharing the experience - let's (the chi) Rock n' Roll!

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