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  • Bruce Lee and MMA

    I recently came across this article about Bruce Lee's contributions to MMA: https://sg.sports.yahoo.com/news/bru...023603202.html

    I will leave it to the MMA practitioners to debate his contributions to their sport, but #3 got me thinking about how diametrically opposed in philosophy internal martial arts schools like ours are to modern perceptions of health and fitness.

    Question for all to consider: How did the idea of muscular supremacy (endurance, strength, etc) become the gold standard for fitness, even combat efficiency? Is it because it is more obvious and easier to achieve (just hard work and rugged determination, as opposed to a more sensitive internal examination necessary for mastery of the internal arts)?
    百德以孝为先
    Persevere in correct practice

  • #2
    I received a private message from a Shaolin Wahnam student who prefers to remain anonymous and whom I shall just call “X”. I fully understand X’s reservations and will respect X’s wishes. I have only edited the text to remove personal information and changed a couple of pronouns, but have otherwise retained the original style of writing in X’s PM. I am grateful for X's very comprehensive and insightful post.

    --------------------

    Regarding why muscles were considered the gold standard for combat efficiency, X agreed with the notion of it being obvious and easier to achieve than internal training. Furthermore, the "force training" is often relatively simpler and can be attempted by virtually anyone just watching someone else do it; the notion of a heart-to-heart transmission isn't such a big deal in external cultivation. One of the biggest reasons for external training being so popular, is also its perceived "immediate relevance" to fighting. When a boxer, kick boxer, Muay Thai person, Karateka, or whatever sees someone punching the sandbag, running laps around the track, lifting weights, or practicing their forms and drills with weighted gloves and clothing, they can immediately see that such-and-such an exercise will improve the body mechanics, power, and speed of their martial movements.
    On a related note, because of the visible effects of the training (toning, bulking, shaping, or what-have-you), it serves as its own "marker" for how long someone has been training (in a slightly more obvious way than how we can, for example, feel someone's internal force by knocking arms with them or doing Pushing Hands or what-have-you).

    In comparison, internal force training sets may look completely unrelated to actual fighting patterns. To most people, the One Finger Shooting Zen set, for example, or most of the Eighteen Lohan Art look completely unrelated to fighting. They'll say things such as, "You don't stand like that in fighting!" or similar things. Funnily enough, such people would probably be more attracted to the flow method or certain Taijiquan method of force training, but they might want to add weights to the training to make it more strenuous.
    And then, well, there are the aspects and fruits of internal training that simply have no place in the paradigm of external training alone. For example, "everyone knows" that muscles contract to pull your bones, with attachments and insertions serving as levers, fulcrums, and pulleys to move your body to and fro. The idea of internal training that can directly move your bones without muscles, to "fill up" your muscles to make them powerful and fast in combat, or circulating about the body before shooting into an opponent's body to damage their internal organs, those things just don't exist in the "external" paradigm and hence, the hallmarks of success in internal training simply don't come to mind for most people, even martial artists.

    The other reason why muscle training might have been so popular, even in martial arts that espouse internal training, could be because muscular training was considered the external foundation to internal cultivation.
    X’s Hung Gar & Kuntao training is relevant here. His master learnt from one of the patriarchs of Hung Gar. One of the major exercises in that lineage is so-called "Bridge Hand Training," which is very similar to Double Stability of Golden Bridge from Iron Wire (where you sit in a Horse Riding Stance and continuously stretch forward both arms in the One Finger Zen hand-form). Unlike Shaolin Wahnam, however, it is emphasized to practice this pattern as "dynamic tension," where the muscles of the arms and spine are engaged and held firm. In that school, engaging the muscles in that fashion would help focus and condense qi into internal force, especially along the arms when done in that fashion. X’s teacher also developed force through the flow method naturally over time.

    X had discussions with martial artists of over schools over the years about how their methods of focusing qi and internal force at various parts in their body mainly involved tensing or engaging the muscles near that part of the body so that qi could flow into an area and gather, but it would not flow away. In schools that use that sort of training, the "proper" (for them) method involves very fine muscular movements, so it was not surprising that those schools would emphasize a lot of muscle training, especially at the student level, so that they could later have the muscular capacity to pursue such training methods in the future. In fact, a Japanese martial art that X studied had an internal force training set, but students often practiced it as a dynamic tension set since they hadn't been formally introduced to internal training. Thinking back about that set, though, he recognised derivatives of kung fu force training patterns and stances though, like Carrying the Cosmos and Big Boss Lifts Urn.

    And then, frankly, there are the schools that have mistaken muscular training as "internal" training. To use Hung Gar as another example, the "Dragon" section of the Hung Gar Five Animals set and the Iron Wire set are practiced by loads of people today as dynamic tension exercises instead of truly internal exercises. They can develop a lot of strength in that fashion, and maybe even "focus" qi for combat along their arms and legs because of the muscular tension mentioned in the last paragraph, but as we all know, such training isn't good for people in the long run.
    百德以孝为先
    Persevere in correct practice

    Comment


    • #3
      Good discussion.

      I believe one over-riding cultural factor in the popularity of external training is the fetishism of the aesthetic it develops.

      For example, if you look at pictures of male bodybuilders from the 19th century, and female beauties of the same time periods, the proportions were far more "normal" and natural.

      Nowadays? The iconic physiques are direct products of "cheating"; steroids and other forms of hormones for men, and plastic surgery and breast enhancements for women. No cheating, no Arnold Schwarzenegger or Pamela Anderson.

      In regards to more direct and immediate causes; we all grow up with external training and can see and feel the results, which are a fairly concrete point of reference for everyone (though note that high performance athletes don't necessarily have impressive muscular development, as organ, organ system and cellular performance have a lot to do with high athletic performance! not to mention meridians ).

      The fact that (i) meditation and (ii) naturalistic medicine are not widely practiced by modern westernised culture I believe is the reason for the fetishism earlier mentioned. Even in eastern cultures, natural medicine is in the minority, and high quality chi training is rare.
      Sifu Andy Cusick

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      • #4
        Thanks for bringing this subject up Wuji. People could get the wrong impression and think we are rubbishing external training, which I don't think we are. External training has many benefits for people: building strength, confidence, fitness and health. Of course this is when it is done properly without causing harm to the person. I enjoyed many years of external training. Unfortunately I also spent many years overcoming the injuries and damage I had done. Which is one of the downsides.

        Like our own internal training it would be misleading to think you could just watch someone doing internal or external training and then think you have it, when there is much more going on in both approaches.

        Both internal and external training have their merits and downsides. The time it can often take to train internal can put people off, when as you say, the external training can give quicker results in appearance and sometimes feeling.

        But alas nature also has its part in this. There are few people that can beat atrophy! Where as internal training can go on to benefit the internal systems as well as the outward glow.

        I would be interested to hear what others have experienced in both approaches or if so far they mainly train externally how they view the internal approach.

        We are lucky that we can train both internally and externally. Although our external approach may differ from the general approach to this. That is for another discussion though.

        Best
        Tim Franklin

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        • #5
          Hi everyone,

          I've done a wing chun external training program, and at the other end of the spectrum they do teach Siu Lim Tau in a very internal way, my wahnam skills could only enhance it.

          The floor work consisted of exercises included doing planks in the Lan Sau position, alternating one handed pushups from Lan Sau position using the Jek Cheung palm strike, fingertip pushups, centerline pushups, and leg raises while chain punching.

          There was lots of repetition of hand techniques, and individual parts of siu lim tau, chain punching, progressive punching. More than once I felt this build flowing force for me.

          Stance training such as horse stance, sinking down to one knee to simulate pinning an opponent while chain punching downwards. Repetition of striking, defensive, and kicking combos. Standing on one leg with a low front or side kick extended.

          After all this they do qi gong, which suprisingly while not being wahnam level is quite good in its own right.

          Benefits, well, I got a lot externally stronger which helped my work which involves intensive manual labor, my relaxation got deeper because they really emphasize soft force in almost everything except the impact when punching. My girlfriend liked the tone my muscles developed(biggest benefit.) I never got big muscles but my power and stamina was raised by a lot. It enhanced my Shaolin force training because my physical structure became more aligned and focused. My hand speed and precision leveled up. Most important to mention I met my girlfriend and many good people there. Finally...I had a lot of fun!

          There weren't too many downsides to the experience, I only felt bad a couple times due to mistakes in the techniques, and letting myself tense up when the activity got too vigorous. But they were quick to correct structural mistakes, and remind anyone who had that issue to relax again.

          The head instructor of that school designed the program to build a musculature ideally suited for wing chun, and I am sure he succeeded in his goal.

          With Shaolin Salute
          Shaolin Wahnam USA

          "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post
            Is it because it is more obvious and easier to achieve (just hard work and rugged determination, as opposed to a more sensitive internal examination necessary for mastery of the internal arts)?
            I think in part yes. This was best summed up to me by a former kickboxing instructor of mine, who was a 3rd Dan Karate blackbelt but had trained under one of the best Karate instructors in the UK. When asked by another student his views on karate, and whether he still did or liked karate, why he had switched to kickboxing, he said:

            "Karate can be really good - but only if you are brilliant at it. You have to practise it for at least 10 years, you have to be talented to start with, you have to be unbelievably dedicated and you need a huge amount of time to develop the skill to use the moves. Hardly anyone can do it. My instructor [he might have said sensei or whatever the word is] is the only one I have ever seen who can really use it, but he is a one-off and it took him 10 years. It would take you 10 years and even then you might not be able to. And you won't notice much improvement for a lot of that time. Whereas with this [kickboxing], no matter what level you start at, if you train this for 6 weeks you will be better than when you started, and you will be able to use every single thing you learn almost straight away. If you train it for 6 months you will be better than you were after 6 weeks. Same after 1 year, 3 years, etc. It will always make you a better fighter."

            Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post
            Question for all to consider: How did the idea of muscular supremacy (endurance, strength, etc) become the gold standard for fitness, even combat efficiency?
            I believe the answer is very very simple. If you look at the champions of genuine full contact sport and fighting competitions, all of them (there are no exceptions that I am aware of) have used external systems to win, and the result of practising those external systems means that most of them have the defined, muscular body that results from that.

            (There are a few exceptions, such as flyweight boxers who starve themselves to nothing to make the weight and are not very muscular, or the odd heavyweight and cruiserweight fighters who are so good that they can fight even though they carry a lot of fat such as ButterBean, Tank Abbott and, one of my favourite fighters, James Toney.)

            People follow what they think works, which they have to decide from what they can see, and what they get a chance to practise for themselves. They don't get much chance to see internal kungfu in competitions because no one has been able to successfully use it at the highest level so far. And they don't get to practise it locally because there are lots of boxing, kickboxing and mma schools, but not many kungfu schools, and even fewer internal kungfu schools.

            The latter is a function of the former, ie if internal kungfu was more successful in competitions, then there would be more internal kungfu schools. I think this fact is recognised by Sifu hence his development of the Warrior Project and other initiatives.

            My idea can be summed up with a phrase I learned from American Stock Car racing, ie NASCAR, which I am a fan of. The original idea of that was that instead of racing each other in racecars, they would race each other in production cars that the fans could then go and buy in the storeroom, or at least something very similar. The car companies supported this as a way to enhance their sales and profits. The phrase is:

            "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday."

            Comment


            • #7
              If you look at the champions of genuine full contact sport and fighting competitions, all of them (there are no exceptions that I am aware of) have used external systems to win, and the result of practising those external systems means that most of them have the defined, muscular body that results from that.
              That isn't true Paul. Here are three of the greatest Heavyweight boxers of all time: Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis and Mohammed Ali

              rocky marciano.jpgJoe Louis.jpgMuhammad-Ali.jpg
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              • #8
                I need to rephrase, or state more clearly, something I said earlier which was ambiguous as Barry has pointed out. I said:
                Originally posted by drunken boxer View Post
                If you look at the champions of genuine full contact sport and fighting competitions, all of them (there are no exceptions that I am aware of) have used external systems to win, and the result of practising those external systems means that most of them have the defined, muscular body that results from that.
                That made it look like I was saying there were no exceptions both to the rule that no internal fighter has become world champion and that no one has become world champion without a muscular body. I did not mean to conflate the two concepts, the "no exceptions" rule applies only to the no internal fighter having won. Those without defined muscular bodies have been world boxing champion, even heavyweight champion, I thought this would be clear from my next sentence where I listed examples of same:

                Originally posted by drunken boxer View Post
                There are a few exceptions, such as flyweight boxers who starve themselves to nothing to make the weight and are not very muscular, or the odd heavyweight and cruiserweight fighters who are so good that they can fight even though they carry a lot of fat such as ButterBean, Tank Abbott and, one of my favourite fighters, James Toney.
                James Toney was a multiple world champion even though he always had a "spare tyre". He is one of my all-time favourite fighters.

                Anyway, I would rephrase what I said earlier as follows:

                "If you look at the champions of genuine full contact sport and fighting competitions, all of them (there are no exceptions that I am aware of) have used external systems to win. No exceptions to this rule."

                "As well as that, the result of practising those external systems is that most of them have the defined muscular body that results from such extensive external training, though there are exceptions as follows."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by barrys View Post
                  That isn't true Paul. Here are three of the greatest Heavyweight boxers of all time: Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis and Mohammed Ali

                  [ATTACH]6076[/ATTACH][ATTACH]6077[/ATTACH][ATTACH]6078[/ATTACH]
                  Hi Barry, see my other reply, I have changed it, I wasn't intending to say that no one could become champion without a defined muscular body, in fact I gave some examples of people with far less defined bodies than Joe Louis, Rocky and Ali, such as Tank Abbott, ButterBean and James Toney.

                  I also mentioned the flyweight boxers who have to cut weight so much they end up looking like 11 years olds on fight day, no muscles at all. A great example of this was another fighter I love: Erik "El Terrible" Morales. Not big muscles, but still had tremendous knock-out power.

                  But seeing as you mentioned them, it's all relative and subjective I suppose but I would say Louis, Rocky and Ali still had well muscled bodies - I think your standards are very high if you think otherwise! They are not Arnold Schwarzennegger of course, but then every boxer knows that if you do too much bodybuilding it will diminish your power.

                  It's true to say they are not as well muscled as say Chris Eubank, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns or Mike Tyson, but on the other hand they are much better muscled than the examples I gave.

                  The Hearns and Eubank examples remind me of something. If you see those two beside almost any heavyweight, they will seem more defined, so you might conclude that the heavyweights aren't as well muscled. In actual fact, it is not because they have bigger muscles because they trained more, lifted weights etc - its because they eat less and do more things like skipping in order to boil themselves down to make weight. The heavyweights train just as externally, its just they don't need to cut weight, if you see what I mean. If Rocky had to cut weight to make middleweight, you would see the muscles he has.

                  Henry Cooper once made a remark in support of what you say though, he said that modern fighters have started lifting weights, whereas in his day it was all bag work, circuits, skipping and running. He said the modern fighters don't have the stamina the guys in his day did, and that they don't hit any harder.

                  By the way, people are usually surprised to find that Mike Tyson never lifted weights to gain his amazing physique that he had during his "Reign of Terror" as world champion from 1986 to 1989. Just the normal boxing training, calisthenics and hitting the bags gave him that physique. He only lifted weights after he went to jail and they had weights but no boxing programme.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post
                    Question for all to consider: How did the idea of muscular supremacy (endurance, strength, etc) become the gold standard for fitness, even combat efficiency? Is it because it is more obvious and easier to achieve (just hard work and rugged determination, as opposed to a more sensitive internal examination necessary for mastery of the internal arts)?
                    Thank you all for a very spirited discussion and insightful comments. Amazing as it sounds, I agree with everyone here.

                    I am stealing a few moments from work to add a quick personal anecdote before coming back with a longer post.

                    When I was young (a teenager), I bought a book titled "Bruce Lee's fighting method: basic training". Today, that is part of a collection sold in a single volume or at least in a set, and it has been translated into Chinese. I was fascinated by it, and began training some of the methods described in it.

                    Surprising as it may seem, there was a chapter on internal training, based on wing chun. Yet, I only practiced the external stuff, including skipping and weight-assisted striking. Why didn't I even try the wing chun training? Thinking back, the answer is now quite obvious: I didn't know how to do it properly. There were too many nuances and details I was not sure about. Remember, that being born a Chinese, and exposed to all the cultural influences and speaking the language, internal training was not in the least alien to me, but even then, I did not attempt it. I think it was simply easier and safer to go with what is externally observable. Perhaps some divine intervention ensued so that I did not harm myself unwittingly.

                    Sifu likes to say that many Chinese are afraid of qigong and internal arts despite being familiar with the concept, because they are scared to 走火入魔 (enter fire, and demon enters, or in plain English, to deviate and harm oneself). And for the average Westerner, they are just not exposed to this alternative method, and don't know any better. Even if they know about it, can they find a competent person to teach them?

                    When I was in the military (as a conscript), we learnt many maxims. One which describes this situation is: "Monkey see, monkey do". People just prefer to copy someone else and follow the mainstream, than to delve deeper and examine themselves. In this respect, I have to admire Bruce Lee for trying to break the mould and develop martial arts in his own image and with his own vision, even if I don't agree with his methods now.
                    百德以孝为先
                    Persevere in correct practice

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      @David

                      That sounds like a nice training system and a good experience

                      @Paul

                      I believe the answer is very very simple. If you look at the champions of genuine full contact sport and fighting competitions, all of them (there are no exceptions that I am aware of) have used external systems to win, and the result of practising those external systems means that most of them have the defined, muscular body that results from that.
                      That made it look like I was saying there were no exceptions both to the rule that no internal fighter has become world champion and that no one has become world champion without a muscular body. I did not mean to conflate the two concepts, the "no exceptions" rule applies only to the no internal fighter having won.
                      I'll take you up on this on three points (i) but what did they use to win? (ii) did they really use no internal methods? and (iii) are external and internal training methods really opposed?

                      (i) But what did they use to win?

                      If we classify performance enhancing drugs as an "internal" method, then a surprising percentage of high performance athletics involves such a method

                      Bruce Lee = steroids
                      Arnold Schwarzenegger = steroids
                      Lionel Messi = (legal) HGH
                      Lance Armstrong = PED cocktail
                      Marion Jones = PED cocktail
                      Asafa Powell = steroids
                      Anderson Silva = steroids
                      Alex Rodriguez = HGH

                      Medal winners in all of the below sports have been caught using, and many of these sports have incomplete (or no) PED testing regimens (and drugs are always ahead of the testing curve), so the number of users far outstrips the numbers caught. Sports where PEDs are a problem:

                      - Tour de France = PED cocktail
                      - Boxing = PED cocktail
                      - Olympic Weightlifting = PED cocktail
                      - Modern Bodybuilding = PED cocktail
                      - Olympic Sprinting = PED cocktail
                      - MMA = PED cocktail
                      - Baseball = PED cocktail
                      - Soccer = PED cocktail
                      - Marathon & Long Distance Running = PED cocktail
                      - Olympic Athletics = PED cocktail
                      - Rugby = PED cocktail = PED cocktail
                      - American Football = PED cocktail

                      This goes back to the earlier point I was making. The physiques of the male models on all the magazine covers in the newstands? Not a natural body image for young men to aspire to.

                      In fact, what most people don't know about the fitness models and bodybuilders who are promoting the next pill, powder or potion is that these models are scheduled for photoshoots immediately after competitions. This is to ensure the model is in extreme shape after months of dieting, intense training (often times with the use of steroids and growth hormone), tanning, posing practice, using diuretics, and other photo-enhancing products and tricks.

                      Although this type of extreme shape is temporary, many magazines and advertising campaigns hope their prospects buy into the belief that this condition is the standard look, rather than the exception, and never do they explain that this look is temporary and that these models do not look like this all the time. These images may inspire millions, but they also mislead millions. Individuals are encouraged to emulate their idols, not knowing how they really got there.

                      - Fitness model Vince Del Monte
                      Male Fitness Model Tip #10 – Consider using Steroids

                      Depending upon how closely you want to resemble a true male fitness model, you may need to use steroids to get there. The sad reality is that we’re not all born with perfect genetics that enable us to cut fat easily while effortlessly gaining muscle. Plus many top fitness models and bodybuilders have used roids to get where they are today, which means those who are shooting for the top should think about doing the same. If you’re totally new to juicing, it’s extremely important to learn everything you can about the subject before buying a single pill. The EliteFitness forum is a great place to learn about using steroids because our site is loaded with information.

                      - Elite Fitness
                      "If you're not cheating, you are not trying"
                      • 15 million—the number of Americans who use performance-enhancing drugs, according to one estimate
                      • $1 billion plus—the amount of money spent annually in the United States on legal (prescribed) human growth hormone (HGH)
                      • 2.4 million—the number of prescriptions for testosterone filled by U.S. pharmacies in 2004
                      • 3 million—the number of Americans who use anabolic steroids
                      • 750,000—the estimated number of children who have used steroids and HGH


                      PED use is endemic in the "fitness", bodybuilding and professional athletics worlds.

                      (ii) Did they use internal methods?

                      - MMA and Full Contact

                      Many top fighters over the past decades have been making increasing use of meditation, visualisation and yoga.

                      Randy Couture (LHW & HW Champion) - Visualisation
                      Rashad Evans (LHW Champion) - Visualisation
                      Lyoto Machida (LHW Champion) - Meditation

                      - Full Contact San Shou

                      San Shou competitions in China have been won by participants who practice Zhang Zhuang and qigong (I believe Sifu's writing mentions one or more masters of traditional styles who were part-responsible for making up the original Sanda ruleset, as well as competing). Other San Shou champions have retired from competition to practice only internal kungfu (I believe there is a documentary posted somewhere on this forum about such a master).

                      - Competition Level Jujitsu

                      Rickson Gracie, the most lauded Grace Fighter took up yoga and yogic breathing to improve his grappling.

                      - Top Athletes

                      Many top athletes use visualisation, meditation, TCM and yoga in their preparation.

                      The Seattle Seahawks team for example, were given a meditation and yoga program by their trainers. They won the Superbowl.


                      As MMA in particular is evolving, many of the top performers are increasingly internalising their practice with visualisation, meditation and yogic breathing and pranayama. There may not be any we know of using Chinese chi training at the moment, but this goes on to my next point:

                      (iii) are external and internal training methods really opposed?

                      "If you want to learn to swim, jump into the water. On dry land, no frame of mind is ever going to help you."
                      - Bruce Lee

                      In Sifu's writing there is the story of the Chinese swimming champion who trained Horse Stance to improve his performance.

                      One of the Instructor's of this school was a professional athlete.

                      - Did internal methods improve these athlete's performance? Of course!

                      - Did either of these athletes stop doing their usual training to concentrate solely on qigong? No! If you want to swim, you have to get into the water. The internal training complemented the external training.

                      Both subjectively (our own experience) and objectively (measured performance analysis), internal training indisputably improves performance.

                      This goes for the cutting edge of combat sports:- MMA fighters have "internalised" their training and improved their performance.

                      So why aren't there any famous internal stylists at the top of combat sports? Give me a top fighter and I'll improve their performance. However, put me in there and I'll have a serious problem. I'm not a natural athlete and I haven't dedicated my entire life to, nor do I spend all my daily hours devoted to "swimming" i.e. fighting.

                      I am sure there are people out there who could reach the top level of martial sports using internal kungfu, but generally the aspirations and philosophies of external combat sports practitioners and internal kungfu practitioners go in different directions. One is dedicated to maximising performance over a short career and the ability to damage the opponent, while the other is devoted to health and well-being improvement for one and all.
                      Sifu Andy Cusick

                      Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                      Shaolin Qigong

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                      Connect:
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                      "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                      - ancient wisdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Andy,

                        As with Barry, I should say thanks for allowing me to clarify what I have said. I thought I was going to be able to reply with "but I specifically said internal kungfu, not internal systems" however on reading it back that isn't as clear in writing as it was in my head, so no matter I shall rephrase it to be clear of what I meant.

                        I am saying specifically that no one has used internal kungfu to win martial arts competitions (so far).

                        I should clarify further that I mean professional boxing (WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO), UFC, Strikeforce, K1, ie the "big" competitions who reach the widest viewership and make the most money. Anything that is big in America basically.

                        I am also not saying that no one could, only that so far no one has. And that this is why other martial arts "sell" better than internal kungfu.

                        I will try not to broaden the debate any further past that if I can avoid it.

                        On that basis:

                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        @Paul

                        I'll take you up on this on three points (i) but what did they use to win? (ii) did they really use no internal methods? and (iii) are external and internal training methods really opposed?

                        (i) But what did they use to win?

                        If we classify performance enhancing drugs as an "internal" method, then a surprising percentage of high performance athletics involves such a method

                        Bruce Lee = steroids
                        Arnold Schwarzenegger = steroids
                        Lionel Messi = (legal) HGH
                        Lance Armstrong = PED cocktail
                        Marion Jones = PED cocktail
                        Asafa Powell = steroids
                        Anderson Silva = steroids
                        Alex Rodriguez = HGH

                        Medal winners in all of the below sports have been caught using, and many of these sports have incomplete (or no) PED testing regimens (and drugs are always ahead of the testing curve), so the number of users far outstrips the numbers caught. Sports where PEDs are a problem:

                        - Tour de France = PED cocktail
                        - Boxing = PED cocktail
                        - Olympic Weightlifting = PED cocktail
                        - Modern Bodybuilding = PED cocktail
                        - Olympic Sprinting = PED cocktail
                        - MMA = PED cocktail
                        - Baseball = PED cocktail
                        - Soccer = PED cocktail
                        - Marathon & Long Distance Running = PED cocktail
                        - Olympic Athletics = PED cocktail
                        - Rugby = PED cocktail = PED cocktail
                        - American Football = PED cocktail

                        This goes back to the earlier point I was making. The physiques of the male models on all the magazine covers in the newstands? Not a natural body image for young men to aspire to.





                        "If you're not cheating, you are not trying"
                        • 15 million—the number of Americans who use performance-enhancing drugs, according to one estimate
                        • $1 billion plus—the amount of money spent annually in the United States on legal (prescribed) human growth hormone (HGH)
                        • 2.4 million—the number of prescriptions for testosterone filled by U.S. pharmacies in 2004
                        • 3 million—the number of Americans who use anabolic steroids
                        • 750,000—the estimated number of children who have used steroids and HGH


                        PED use is endemic in the "fitness", bodybuilding and professional athletics worlds.

                        (ii) Did they use internal methods?

                        - MMA and Full Contact

                        Many top fighters over the past decades have been making increasing use of meditation, visualisation and yoga.

                        Randy Couture (LHW & HW Champion) - Visualisation
                        Rashad Evans (LHW Champion) - Visualisation
                        Lyoto Machida (LHW Champion) - Meditation
                        So given my clarification that I am specifically talking about internal kungfu, I don't think this really matters, obviously my contention is that no one has won these big tournaments using internal kungfu, not that no one has won them with the assistance of steroids, visualisation, yoga etc though I would add that even when they use those methods, they use them in training, but in the fighting they use external martial arts.

                        It is like saying Muhammad Ali used God to win the heavyweight championship - he didn't, he used his fists. He used his boxing ability, just like when Prince Naseem Hamed fought Marco Antonio Barrera there was a brilliant interview with Barrera beforehand, I hope I can replicate his wonderful broken English when he said:
                        "Naseem always saying 'Oh, Allah going to help me, Allah going to help me.' But when we fight that night, when he get in the ring and look across, he going to see Marco Antonio Barrera - not Allah."

                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        - Full Contact San Shou

                        San Shou competitions in China have been won by participants who practice Zhang Zhuang and qigong (I believe Sifu's writing mentions one or more masters of traditional styles who were part-responsible for making up the original Sanda ruleset, as well as competing). Other San Shou champions have retired from competition to practice only internal kungfu (I believe there is a documentary posted somewhere on this forum about such a master).
                        I hope that is true, and obviously we are inclined to like such stories. But sticking to the original question, the question was not has that happened, can that happen, but why have external martial arts been so popular and internal kungfu so unpopular. Even if people were winning such competitions today using internal kungfu, people would still favour what wins in K1, the UFC etc - though I think it would cause a big stir, start to filter through and make an impact on those if it started to make an impact on the smaller competitions first.

                        But most people of a boxing or western mindset don't believe what they can't see, which I think is a reasonable and logical starting point for them, so stories of the exploits of masters in the past they would see as "Chinese whispers" and either they wouldn't believe that Wong Fei Hoong had done this or that, or they would say things like "Yeah but Mike Tyson would still knock him out."

                        I myself would not believe any of these stories had I not the opportunity to see and experience real internal kungfu first hand, and extrapolate what might be possible. I can see how others not fortunate enough to have these experiences, would not believe it, just as I wouldn't have.

                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        - Competition Level Jujitsu

                        Rickson Gracie, the most lauded Grace Fighter took up yoga and yogic breathing to improve his grappling.

                        - Top Athletes

                        Many top athletes use visualisation, meditation, TCM and yoga in their preparation.

                        The Seattle Seahawks team for example, were given a meditation and yoga program by their trainers. They won the Superbowl.


                        As MMA in particular is evolving, many of the top performers are increasingly internalising their practice with visualisation, meditation and yogic breathing and pranayama. There may not be any we know of using Chinese chi training at the moment, but this goes on to my next point:
                        Think I have given my view on this earlier.

                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        (iii) are external and internal training methods really opposed?

                        "If you want to learn to swim, jump into the water. On dry land, no frame of mind is ever going to help you."
                        - Bruce Lee

                        In Sifu's writing there is the story of the Chinese swimming champion who trained Horse Stance to improve his performance.

                        One of the Instructor's of this school was a professional athlete.

                        - Did internal methods improve these athlete's performance? Of course!

                        - Did either of these athletes stop doing their usual training to concentrate solely on qigong? No! If you want to swim, you have to get into the water. The internal training complemented the external training.

                        Both subjectively (our own experience) and objectively (measured performance analysis), internal training indisputably improves performance.

                        This goes for the cutting edge of combat sports:- MMA fighters have "internalised" their training and improved their performance.
                        I think this is the answer to a different question, the question being "Could professional athletes, including professional fighters, use Chi Kung, and indeed Zhang Zhuang, to improve their performance?"
                        Well of course I think they could! But the question is how come these methods have not caught on, and that is what I have tried to answer. I have no doubt that someone in Wahnam 'could' help such a person, and that if they did, and the person was high profile, and the person mentioned this, then there would be increased interest or 'sales'. More on this in a minute.

                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        So why aren't there any famous internal stylists at the top of combat sports? Give me a top fighter and I'll improve their performance. However, put me in there and I'll have a serious problem. I'm not a natural athlete and I haven't dedicated my entire life to, nor do I spend all my daily hours devoted to "swimming" i.e. fighting.

                        I am sure there are people out there who could reach the top level of martial sports using internal kungfu, but generally the aspirations and philosophies of external combat sports practitioners and internal kungfu practitioners go in different directions. One is dedicated to maximising performance over a short career and the ability to damage the opponent, while the other is devoted to health and well-being improvement for one and all.
                        I mentioned in my review of Xingyiquan in Canada, that after the course, when everyone else had left the hotel, I befriended (in the hotel bar, where else) and spent a couple of days hanging out with a load of boxers and boxing coaches who had been there for a tournament. A couple of the coaches were former pro fighters. Knowing the views of this world very well, I didn't lay it on very thick, but I mentioned in a very gentle fashion that it would be great for me or my classmates to train with them, as I thought sparring some of them might help me improve my usage of my martial art. I also said, that I wished I had used these methods back when I had been boxing, because of the extra speed and power I believed they had given me. (The implication being that they too could improve their speed and power.)

                        I also noticed, when I watched some of the fights the next day, high on chi from Sifu's course, I felt that I would love to get in there myself. Not to use kungfu, but to use my kungfu-assisted boxing, that's just the feeling that was in my body that day.

                        I felt this was funny because when I used to compete in such tournaments, this was not the feeling I usually had, I was so nervous I wished I was 100 miles away, I knew I couldn't pull out at that stage, but always swore to myself that I would quit after that fight! And I strongly suspect, that if all of a sudden someone had said to me "You're fighting" those feelings would come back! Which is why I fully understand why people do not want to enter tournaments!

                        If I could then try to freshly tackle your questions:
                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        (i) but what did they use to win? (ii) did they really use no internal methods? and (iii) are external and internal training methods really opposed?
                        (i) External martial arts.
                        (ii) None from internal kungfu in their preparation that I know about, and certainly none from internal kungfu in their actual fighting.
                        (iii) I don't know. I have some thoughts, but I think I have shared enough for one post! At this stage I think I could write my pin number in here and feel certain that no one would read it!
                        Last edited by drunken boxer; 23 June 2015, 10:07 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think, by the way, that whilst I have seen things that are inspirational outside of tournaments, if we are specifically talking about glimmers of hope I have seen inside, it would probably come from three fighters:

                          1. Chuck Liddell. (UFC light heavyweight champion). Though you couldn't tell any more, he does say that his traditional karate background is where he developed a lot of the skills he uses in UFC I believe.

                          2. Nigel Benn. (Middleweight boxing world champion). He says that a lot of the speed and punching power he had, was developed doing kungfu in London, if memory serves me he said the style he did was Mok Gar, which I have heard nothing about other than this mention in Benn's autobiography.

                          But most of all:
                          3. Lyoto Machida. (UFC light heavyweight champion). More than any other fighter, his wide stanced style is the closest I have seen to what some people in Wahnam fight like, it is has enabled me to better visualise what our style might look like if utilised in this environment.

                          And then there are also the examples provided by Robin, Jorg and Wagas who have used our style successfully in full-contact competition, providing much inspiration.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Paul,

                            I think it would be fair to say that you like boxing and have read a great deal over the years on the subject. But when you say things like:

                            "If you look at the champions of genuine full contact sport and fighting competitions, all of them (there are no exceptions that I am aware of) have used external systems to win. No exceptions to this rule."
                            It sounds like you have carried out in-depth research of ALL the fighters in history, and not just the more famous or high profile ones.
                            Today we look at champions on the tv in MMA, but there are most probably also many martial art champions fighting in the world that we don’t know about. This is my opinion, not a fact, like your comments are your opinions, not necessarily fact.

                            You have said ‘that you are aware of’ in the same sentence, which might let you off the hook, even though you kind of come across as the authority on the subject. Of course you may well be the authority of information on this subject. In which case please accept my most humble apologies.

                            The question Wuji asked was
                            How did the idea of muscular supremacy (endurance, strength, etc) become the gold standard for fitness, even combat efficiency?
                            You’ve kind of turned this into you don’t know of any Champions that train internally.

                            So on this subject Paul what is your thoughts and experience of why people choose to train externally for fighting instead of internally?

                            Here’s why I think.
                            1. Traditional Internal training takes longer to reach the same level of combat efficiency if time is spent on developing internal force.
                            2. Fighters don’t have access to internal masters at their local gym/mma school/dojo
                            3. They don’t believe it works or is necessary to spend the time investment on it
                            4. The aim of the practice is to win the competition, irrespective of the health implications of the training they do

                            Another question for you Paul. What constitutes an internal practice?

                            Personally I believe that if people followed Sifu’s training advice on sparring methodology that they would be able to win competitions using internal training methods. Of course to the onlooker it might appear they are using external fighting style if they stick to basic patterns like, black tiger, fierce tiger, hang golden star, precious duck, white horse, happy bird and naughty monkey.

                            If a person trained and used these patterns whilst being relaxed physically, mentally and emotionally then that would internal in my view. What’s your opinion on this?
                            Tim Franklin

                            http://www.theguardianlions.co.uk
                            A story of finding Courage and Wisdom

                            www.zenarts.co.uk Classes and Courses for Shaolin Kung Fu, Taijiquan and Qigong in Bognor Regis, Chichester, West Sussex

                            Fully Alive on Facebook Energy Flow for Health and Happiness

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                            • #15
                              Hi Tim Siheng,

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              Hi Paul,

                              I think it would be fair to say that you like boxing and have read a great deal over the years on the subject.
                              Not much reading, more from watching fights and interviews, from boxing myself, and from listening to coaches and fellow boxers, but a fair bit of research yes.

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              But when you say things like:

                              It sounds like you have carried out in-depth research of ALL the fighters in history, and not just the more famous or high profile ones.
                              I don't want to make my reply longer by digging up my quotes, but a summary of what I've said earlier is in answer to Wuji's question ie

                              "How did the idea of muscular supremacy (endurance, strength, etc) become the gold standard for fitness, even combat efficiency? Is it because it is more obvious and easier to achieve (just hard work and rugged determination, as opposed to a more sensitive internal examination necessary for mastery of the internal arts)?"

                              is that in the big professional competitions, the ones that get the money, the viewers etc ie UFC, professional boxing, K1, everyone who has won, has done so by using the external/muscular/strength/endurance approaches. People have seen that and because "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday" they have then taken those approaches, as opposed to internal ones. External has been advertised better, if you like, and therefore has sold better. (Which doesn't make it a superior product - VHS outsold the technically superior Betamax for instance.)

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              Today we look at champions on the tv in MMA, but there are most probably also many martial art champions fighting in the world that we don’t know about. This is my opinion, not a fact, like your comments are your opinions, not necessarily fact.
                              Some of my comments on this thread, for sure, have been opinions, some have been facts. My hypothesis as to why internal methods have, so far, been outsold by external methods, is my opinion.

                              My comments that no one has, so far, used internal kungfu to win championships in professional boxing, K1 or the UFC, are fact.

                              I agree with you that there are champions in the world today, and have been more in the past, that we, or at least I, don't know about. This further supports my point, because my point is that people practise the things they can see working in action, or that they can experience, and the more high profile something is, the more people will see it, the more it will catch on with local clubs springing up etc and the more they will get a chance to practise it. UFC, K1 and pro boxing champions are very high profile, so people want to practise those arts, whereas the champions we have not heard of are by definition not high profile.

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              You have said ‘that you are aware of’ in the same sentence, which might let you off the hook, even though you kind of come across as the authority on the subject. Of course you may well be the authority of information on this subject. In which case please accept my most humble apologies.
                              Of course there is no need for you to apologise, and at this juncture, as your junior, I ask for your help if you think anything I say is disrespectful to yourself or Sifu. I don't think so, because Sifu usually lets me know in no uncertain terms if he disagrees with something I am doing, I have very recent evidence from the Xingyiquan course! And I believe you too would be forthright if needs be Tim Siheng!

                              I then will presume it is ok to respectfully give my opinions, or facts, and shall proceed unless told otherwise. I don't think I could change my opinions all that easily, but I could of course desist from giving them here if desired.

                              So on the specific question of "that I am aware of" well I very sure of my ground that no one has used internal kungfu to win at the UFC, professional boxing or K1. To be honest, on this point, I probably shouldn't have said "that I am aware of", I should have said there just aren't!

                              For other competitions, for regional competitions, for things in the past, I wouldn't know.

                              Also, though I am clear no one used internal kungfu in their fighting in these tournaments, I could not say for certain that none used it as part of their training regime, and that is part of Wuji's question. I would certainly like to know if any did. But more importantly, I am clear from my own experience, that someone definitely could!

                              Again with the last two points, if it happened but people are not aware of it, then again this is why the things that people are aware of sell better.

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              The question Wuji asked was

                              You’ve kind of turned this into you don’t know of any Champions that train internally.

                              So on this subject Paul what is your thoughts and experience of why people choose to train externally for fighting instead of internally?
                              The answer I have given to that, is in my posts above but also within those two sentences I have just quoted - the first part, to my mind, is the answer to the second part. "What wins on Sunday, sells on monday." So my view is that the reason people choose to train externally for fighting, is because they, just like me, do not know of any champions that train internally. Therefore while they may or may not believe someone could win using internal kungfu, they know for sure that people can win using external methods.

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              Here’s why I think.
                              1. Traditional Internal training takes longer to reach the same level of combat efficiency if time is spent on developing internal force.
                              2. Fighters don’t have access to internal masters at their local gym/mma school/dojo
                              3. They don’t believe it works or is necessary to spend the time investment on it
                              4. The aim of the practice is to win the competition, irrespective of the health implications of the training they do
                              I agree that all those are factors. The one that I agree with most strongly is number 2. And I think the reason they don't have access to those masters is because there are not many around, which in turn is because not as many people practise internal arts, which in turn, in my view, is to a large extent explained by the external arts having, so far, more success in tournaments.

                              That bit is, of course, my personal opinion. On the opinion thing again, I think the only time it falls down is if there are facts which prove or disprove an opinion. I think for example we could prove which competitions are most popular, ie which have the most attendees at the fights, viewers on tv, or make the most money. But as to why those competitions are more popular, of course I can only speculate and give my opinion.

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              Another question for you Paul. What constitutes an internal practice?
                              I presume you mean in terms of kungfu Tim Siheng? Then to me it would be one that relies on the cultivation of chi and internal force, trained in a relaxed, meditative manner. Or more simply: practising according to what a genuine internal kungfu master has taught.

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              Personally I believe that if people followed Sifu’s training advice on sparring methodology that they would be able to win competitions using internal training methods. Of course to the onlooker it might appear they are using external fighting style if they stick to basic patterns like, black tiger, fierce tiger, hang golden star, precious duck, white horse, happy bird and naughty monkey.
                              I think so too.

                              There was a q+a from Sifu on this years ago where someone asked him if this would be possible, and I believe Sifu's answer was that yes it would be possible, but that the fighters would have to take their training as seriously as those kickboxers and so forth who enter tournaments. Sifu said that he would like to train a team of fighters to do this, but two problems were that it is hard to find people willing to dedicate themselves to train this way, and also that it may not be the best use of his time when he could be helping people regain health through chi kung.

                              I wonder if it is a case like this: it has been said that in the internal arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan, after 1 years practise the Xingyiquan person will be best, after 3 years the Baguazhang person will be best, and after 10 years the Xingyiquan person will be best.

                              Could it be that for internal vs external, at first more can be achieved using the standard boxing or kickboxing methods, where they sometimes only train 2 or 3 times a week for a couple of hours each time. Yet some are very good after that. Though they still practise every individual move a lot, I've heard an estimate of throwing each punch 700 times per session. And their sparring is not like ours - in some clubs each person is genuinely trying to knock the other person out cold over 2-4 rounds of 2-3 mins. Maybe that gives them a headstart in the early days. But it has diminishing returns. Whereas on the other hand, at a later stage perhaps a master can get more from 15 mins training than they get from 2 hours, or their whole week?

                              Originally posted by Tim View Post
                              If a person trained and used these patterns whilst being relaxed physically, mentally and emotionally then that would internal in my view. What’s your opinion on this?
                              Yes for sure, that would be internal in my view.

                              I think though, forgive me if my speculation is wrong, that what you might be leading towards saying is this:
                              1. It is hard to tell the difference between external and internal methods if people only use standard things like Black Tiger, Precious Duck etc.
                              2. If these are trained in a relaxed manner, they are internal.

                              Therefore if we find a fighter who is relaxed and uses methods like these to win, he is internal? In my view he would be relaxed, but he would not be using internal kungfu if there was no chi cultivation involved, no fa jin and so forth. I also think it is easy to tell for example a jab or a right cross from any move in kungfu that I have seen, though if there are moves like that which I have forgotten or not seen, I would definitely like to see them.

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