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  • #16
    Different school, different teaching.

    We shouldn't be telling Michael Sifu how to teach his students.

    As he posts on our forum, he should be pretty well aware in the way our school teaches.

    It's always nice to read and see how other's train, in line with our school or not. Afterall, this is the "other styles of kung fu" part of the forum.

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    • #17
      Nevertheless, I do want to add that making a title post called "Wing Chun internal training", on our forum, regardless of this being "other styles of kungfu" forum-part, it's only natural to get responses from our instructors when the style here shown is obviously external.

      Apologies for my blunt reply

      Tim

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      • #18
        Dear Tim,

        No worries. I am not telling Sifu Michael how to teach his students. I hope I don't come across that way.

        From Sifu McIlwrath's short explanation, I can conclude that there are fundamental differences in how we train and teach internal force and how Sifu McIlwrath trains and teaches. I am therefore hoping he will tell us more so we can have more insight in the teachings of his school as they are rather different from ours.

        Best wishes,

        Roeland
        www.shaolinwahnam.nl
        www.shaolinholland.com

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
          In Wing Chun we do not use any pre-arranged movements like other styles so our force is used in all our patterns.
          Dear Sifu Michael,

          Thank you for sharing your videos on our forum, its interesting for me to see what other styles practice.

          In my experience I can develop internal force and explode it at any point in one of our basic combat sequences or any of the sets I know. This is the norm in our school. Are you saying this isn't the case in Wing Chun? Are you saying it's not possible to use force when performing sequences?

          Honestly I would be interested to hear what you have to say from your many years of experience.

          And thank you Sihing Roeland and Tim Franklin for sharing some really wonderful insights of internal force and combat application.

          Regards,

          Sham.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Shamsher View Post
            Dear Sifu Michael,

            Thank you for sharing your videos on our forum, its interesting for me to see what other styles practice.

            In my experience I can develop internal force and explode it at any point in one of our basic combat sequences or any of the sets I know. This is the norm in our school. Are you saying this isn't the case in Wing Chun? Are you saying it's not possible to use force when performing sequences?

            Honestly I would be interested to hear what you have to say from your many years of experience.

            And thank you Sihing Roeland and Tim Franklin for sharing some really wonderful insights of interanal force and combat application.

            Regards,

            Sham.

            Hello,

            What I mean about sequences you can issue force at any time.What I was saying is in our school we don't place an over emphasis on pre arranged movements because in combat it's not going to happen like that. You have to be ready and think outside the box. Pre arranged patterns I use only as a teaching tool for beginners which later needs to be discarded. Wing Chun does not use pre arranged patterns. Everything happends at the moments.
            Last edited by stonecrusher69; 17 November 2014, 04:15 PM. Reason: added material

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            • #21
              I will try my best to answer your questions Wooden Shoes.

              1.Q. Thank you for posting. A few things are unclear to me after reading your post. Could you explain what you mean with the word 'root' in this sentence:
              Meaning the student has only body connection to his root in certain position and can not move it at will.

              A. What I'm talking about is what we call "Structure" or Body mechanics. This is the fundamental root for a Wing Chun practitioner, For the beginner, they can at times have good structure in limited static positions.Once they move their structure or position they no longer have it,so it takes time to develop. Which leads to your 2nd questions.the" Flowing state".the flowing state is the ability to link and unlink your structure anywhere at anytime in the body. To be able to move your structure at will. This is not based on physical strength but using the mind to lead your intent. Which is your 3rd question..I hope you can understand what I'm talking about.

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              • #22
                What we do in Shaolin Wahnam

                Originally posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
                Hello,

                What I mean about sequences you can issue force at any time.What I was saying is in our school we don't place an over emphasis on pre arranged movements because in combat it's not going to happen like that. You have to be ready and think outside the box. Pre arranged patterns I use only as a teaching tool for beginners which later needs to be discarded. The Fut Sao Wing Chun that I, Sifu McIlwrath, teach does not use pre arranged patterns. Everything happends at the moments.
                Dear Sifu McIlwrath,

                I hope you do not mind that I have taken the liberty of making an adjustment (for the sake of accuracy) to your statement. It's all in good fun, but truly is needed for threads like this.

                The idea that pre-arranged patterns, techniques, movements, etc. are used only to teach beginners and then must be discarded is totally, 100% opposite of what is taught in Shaolin Wahnam - Wing Choon, Shaolin, Taiqiquan, Bagua, etc.

                All of martial arts (from all cultures and times) exist because patterns, techniques, and movements were discovered to have certain advantages in combat. These were taught, practiced, and used. To say the movements are practiced, and then discarded for the "real" stuff, makes no sense to me. Hockey players do not practice the pole vault for a while, and then discard all that training when it's time to get on the ice and play some hockey.

                Or another analogy that is a bit closer to the discussion - someone wanting to learn swimming is not taught the crawl and the back stroke in the pool, and then encouraged to do the doggie paddle to prepare for falling out of a boat. Would someone need to adjust their swimming technique if they fall overboard in the ocean? Of course! But adjusting your technique to best suit the situation is a sign of proper practice. It is certainly not discarding all your practiced movements and attempting to freestyle something on the spot.

                In my opinion/experience, martial arts is the same. Pre-arranged patterns, techniques, and movements are taught. Then they are practiced. Practice means application of the patterns, not just mindless repetition of them. Students experience how each technique is used, and how to adapt techniques to the situation (or perhaps choose a different technique if the situation varies a great deal). This is not discarding the techniques, this is building skill with the techniques. This is how Kungfu is practiced in Shaolin Wahnam.

                Hmm... I seem to have gotten a bit off topic (Wing Chun internal training). I apologize for that!

                -Matt

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
                  A. What I'm talking about is what we call "Structure" or Body mechanics. This is the fundamental root for a Wing Chun practitioner, For the beginner, they can at times have good structure in limited static positions.Once they move their structure or position they no longer have it,so it takes time to develop. Which leads to your 2nd questions.the" Flowing state".the flowing state is the ability to link and unlink your structure anywhere at anytime in the body. To be able to move your structure at will. This is not based on physical strength but using the mind to lead your intent. Which is your 3rd question..I hope you can understand what I'm talking about.
                  Dear Sifu McIlwrath,

                  This sounds very much like what we would call the 6 Harmonies ( http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-2...shaolin12.html ) and the 3 Arrivals ( http://www.shaolin.org/review/black.html ). It is indeed very important!

                  When you say "link and unlink your structure", are you talking about moving from a position of balance/strength to another position of balance/strength? Or something different?

                  -Matt

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Matt F. View Post
                    Dear Sifu McIlwrath,

                    This sounds very much like what we would call the 6 Harmonies ( http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-2...shaolin12.html ) and the 3 Arrivals ( http://www.shaolin.org/review/black.html ). It is indeed very important!

                    When you say "link and unlink your structure", are you talking about moving from a position of balance/strength to another position of balance/strength? Or something different?

                    -Matt

                    Not sure because your wording of " Balance/ strength" has an ambiguous meaning,so in a word yes, but I mean something more specific. This term "link and unlink was coined by sifu Robert Chiu.This linking and unlinking has to do with controlling the joints of the body which is another word for structure. this is the foundation of Wing Chun. When we link the joints or maybe one joint we manipulate energy.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Matt F. View Post
                      Dear Sifu McIlwrath,

                      I hope you do not mind that I have taken the liberty of making an adjustment (for the sake of accuracy) to your statement. It's all in good fun, but truly is needed for threads like this.

                      The idea that pre-arranged patterns, techniques, movements, etc. are used only to teach beginners and then must be discarded is totally, 100% opposite of what is taught in Shaolin Wahnam - Wing Choon, Shaolin, Taiqiquan, Bagua, etc.

                      All of martial arts (from all cultures and times) exist because patterns, techniques, and movements were discovered to have certain advantages in combat. These were taught, practiced, and used. To say the movements are practiced, and then discarded for the "real" stuff, makes no sense to me. Hockey players do not practice the pole vault for a while, and then discard all that training when it's time to get on the ice and play some hockey.

                      Or another analogy that is a bit closer to the discussion - someone wanting to learn swimming is not taught the crawl and the back stroke in the pool, and then encouraged to do the doggie paddle to prepare for falling out of a boat. Would someone need to adjust their swimming technique if they fall overboard in the ocean? Of course! But adjusting your technique to best suit the situation is a sign of proper practice. It is certainly not discarding all your practiced movements and attempting to freestyle something on the spot.

                      In my opinion/experience, martial arts is the same. Pre-arranged patterns, techniques, and movements are taught. Then they are practiced. Practice means application of the patterns, not just mindless repetition of them. Students experience how each technique is used, and how to adapt techniques to the situation (or perhaps choose a different technique if the situation varies a great deal). This is not discarding the techniques, this is building skill with the techniques. This is how Kungfu is practiced in Shaolin Wahnam.

                      Hmm... I seem to have gotten a bit off topic (Wing Chun internal training). I apologize for that!

                      -Matt
                      I can understanding where you are coming from.I think because we train different MA styles and have different teachers and used different verbiage is probably why there is a miscommunication. What I'm trying to get at in a nut shell is patterens,drills or any pre-arranged movements have there place bbut have a limitation.You need to grow beyond that limitation. This stage has little to do with pre arranged patterens..

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
                        Not sure because your wording of " Balance/ strength" has an ambiguous meaning,so in a word yes, but I mean something more specific. This term "link and unlink was coined by sifu Robert Chiu.This linking and unlinking has to do with controlling the joints of the body which is another word for structure. this is the foundation of Wing Chun. When we link the joints or maybe one joint we manipulate energy.
                        Hi Sifu McIlwrath,

                        You're right, "balance/strength" is really vague! Hahaha! It wasn't clear to me what you were saying, so my question was even less clear!

                        But from your description above, I was thinking you were talking about something totally different than you were. I'm not familiar with "link and unlink". It sounds interesting. Perhaps it could be a topic for a future video and discussion?

                        -Matt

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Matt F. View Post
                          Hi Sifu McIlwrath,

                          You're right, "balance/strength" is really vague! Hahaha! It wasn't clear to me what you were saying, so my question was even less clear!

                          But from your description above, I was thinking you were talking about something totally different than you were. I'm not familiar with "link and unlink". It sounds interesting. Perhaps it could be a topic for a future video and discussion?

                          -Matt
                          y

                          This term linking and unlinking is a modern term,so that is why you have not heard about it. Structure is also a modern term but an old concept. The concept in Tai chi is the iron bar wrapped in cotton. But of course when you explain it like this no one will understand it or ever get it!! even though the skill is not very hard to achieve. I could do a video on this but it useless as you can not see what I'm doing internally. You can only understand it if I transmit it to you,By my hand to yours..Then you will know what I'm talking about.

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                          • #28
                            If I understand you correct the linking and unlinking is what I call ‘Whole body Unity’. Whole body is using the 6 harmonies. If the body is tensed or a joint locked then there is not 6 harmonies (Whole body unity/WBU). Using WBU/6H in motion does take some practice and like many things there are a number of approaches.

                            During the various courses on the different styles I have learnt a number of methods to reach this skill. All of them start with entering a chi kung state of mind. Enter a chi kung state of mind you are already connecting three harmonies. Then it is a question of using these in motion whilst maintaining a chi kung state of mind. With correct alignment of the body the chi flows (6H). At no point would this start with tensing the body or locking the joints.

                            So we could use relaxing the mind, body, emotions as a way to get chi flowing and then harmoniously flow in movements, free flow or pre arranged. Both I find help generate internal force in each of the patterns and both can be used spontaneously in combat.

                            Coming off internal force topic slightly there are differing opinions with using prearranged movements. If someone is locked into their prearranged sequence and does not use WBU then the sequence will not work. If chi flow is present at all times and the person uses prearranged movement in flow, adjusting accordingly then it is very effective. Having a plan and the skill to deliver it is an effective way of sparring. See:

                            http://www.shaolin.org/discussion/sparring.html

                            Another method we learnt during Baquazhang course was flowing from a static stance.
                            You can see some of highlights of the course here:
                            http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-8...e/glimpse.html

                            The idea of this is that by holding a static stance you generate internal force, you can then release this force and let it flow through your movements.

                            (What we are doing here is sharing some differences in training modalities. Some of the differences will be because the intention of the outcome is different and some will be different methods. This is not intended to teach Sifu McIlwrath how to teach, but as an open forum we are always happy to share our training methods. If this leads to helping others to realise something, as we do reading their posts, then great!)

                            My experience is number of martial artists develop internal force as a result of their training. Those who start out hard often end soft and at that point chi starts to flow instead of being locked into the muscles and cells. It is a method, all be a it a long route to internal force. On the other end of the scale there are those who practice soft, but despite several years training do not develop much force. Eventually some force comes.

                            I guess we are very lucky with our training methodology, due to the years of dedicated research and practice of our Sifu. By developing the skills of entering a chi kung state of mind and then getting to chi to flow, in static stances and movements, we are able to develop and feel the force very quickly.

                            From relaxation (WBU) comes flow. From flow comes force. From mind the chi flows where intended.
                            From static stance come internal force. From force there is flow. From mind chi flows where intended.

                            Two methods, same end result.

                            How long would it take a practitioner to develop these skills?

                            A 1 day course would develop the skill of generating a chi flow.
                            A 1 day course would develop the skill of generating internal force.
                            A 1 day course would develop the skills of using internal force in application.

                            So, if I was to take someone from scratch they could learn the techniques that lead to the skills of the intended outcome within 3 days.

                            This does not mean that they would be skilful in applying them in combat. But they would have the underlying methods to lead them to it within a short space of time.

                            If someone did decide however to spend the first year in stance training then they would develop a lot of internal force. If the conditions were correct.

                            I find the subject of developing and using internal force a fascinating subject and I am happy to share my experiences with you if it is of interest.
                            Tim Franklin

                            http://www.theguardianlions.co.uk
                            A story of finding Courage and Wisdom

                            www.zenarts.co.uk Classes and Courses for Shaolin Kung Fu, Taijiquan and Qigong in Bognor Regis, Chichester, West Sussex

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                            • #29
                              Thanks Tim for your excellent contributions to that thread. Clear, concise and from direct experience.

                              Did I mention inspiring as well?

                              Maxime Citerne, Chinese Medicine, Qigong Healing & Internal Arts

                              Frankfurt - Paris - Alsace


                              France: www.institut-anicca.com

                              Germany: www.anicca-institute.com

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tim View Post
                                I find the subject of developing and using internal force a fascinating subject and I am happy to share my experiences with you if it is of interest.
                                Yes please, Sipak

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