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  • ayahuasca

    Hello friends,
    Kauai Intensive Chi Gung course was awesome! I wonder if anyone ( especially Sifu) has insight into this story and what my friend should do now. Here is the story:

    But first a note on ayahuasca according to wikipedia and closely matched what my friend described too.
    "People who have consumed ayahuasca report having spiritual revelations regarding their purpose on earth, the true nature of the universe as well as deep insight into how to be the best person they possibly can.[2] This is viewed by many as a spiritual awakening and what is often described as a rebirth.[3] In addition, it is often reported that individuals feel they gain access to higher spiritual dimensions and make contact with various spiritual or extra dimensional beings who can act as guides or healers."

    On returning home from Kauai, I met with a friend who shared an experience of hers with me from when she was in Peru over a year ago. She went to a shaman and tried Ayahuasca for the first time. It was a two day event and the first day she said even though she drank a few extra glasses of the hallucinogenic brew, nothing happened. Afraid she was 'not doing it right' and would leave without the promised spiritual experience, she told the translator her concerns and plans were made for the next night to help her succeed. They gave her the first cup, a special cup it seemed to her, and she went on a nightmare trip. She thought she was overdosed and going to die, literally felt all the pain of every suffering person she had ever met in her nursing career and was swallowed up in darkness. After who knows how long of enduring this pain and terror, she came out the other side of the trip and had the "survivor feelings" that come when people who face severe trauma realize their going to live, and was overwhelmed with gratitude and love. She had to rush home and go to work right after this and was never able to ask the shaman about any of her experience or have any of it explained. To this day she is confused about the whole experience because even though she has a profound value for loving others now, it came with changes to herself. She can not meditate without severe anxiety, feels completely changed from the person she used to be and can not get back to who she was, but she wants too. She relayed this story in tears. She went to a healer and was told that she could sense a large area of "impenetrable blackness" around her chest and core. In my opinion though, she doesn't seem sick, she is a vibrant person with a good vibe and very loving personality. I don't have a good feeling about this type of practice even though it is reputed to have a positive change on folks and even do some of the things we learned in zen class like expanding into the cosmos but I don't want to judge ignorantly either.
    My questions are: could this blackness be a chi blockage? If not, what is it? Has anyone else tried ayahuasca? Can she start to practice lifting the sky as is instructed in Sifu's book and in my classes with Sifu, until she can find an instructor?
    I look forward to your comments and advice,
    Peace,
    Lee Sliffe
    Last edited by lee; 25 July 2014, 04:38 PM. Reason: clarification

  • #2
    Hi Lee,

    I have no experience with Ayahausca.

    I personally follow the path of mental clarity, rather than intoxication, towards mind expansion.

    What your friend has experienced sounds similar to the dark side of LSD trips.

    If she wants a grounded and health generating way to enhance her life, then of course Shaolin Chi Kung is an ideal practice. But she would have to choose to pursue it for herself under the supervision of an Instructor.

    In regards to your specific questions:

    - Could this blackness be a chi blockage?
    No way to tell if she has any 'blackness' at all without seeing her.

    - If not, what is it?
    See above.

    - Can she start to practice lifting the sky as is instructed in Sifu's book and in my classes with Sifu, until she can find an instructor?
    If she has any psychological or energetic disturbance, I would not recommend any self-practice, but making an appointment with a Shaolin Wahnam Instructor/Healer.
    Sifu Andy Cusick

    Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
    Shaolin Qigong

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    Connect:
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    "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
    - ancient wisdom

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Sifu Cusik for replying promptly to my post. As you don't know me I see you initialy answered my question the safe way Of course you wouldn't know if she had blackness or not since you haven't seen her I was expecting something a little different given the obvious nature of this situation on a blog and so forth...I should perhaps have posted my question more like: What situations could a healer face that would result in them saying "ah ha! you have an area of blackness in your energy field". I presume there is only one option (that being a chi blockage) but I am a novice in this regard and would appreciate further insight if you are willing.
      Are there other things that can cause a healer to see / sense this? What could they be?
      Also, I am puzzled about why it wouldn't be good to start with self practice regarding lifting the sky. Of course the best situation is to have an instructor, but I recall part of Sifu's reason for writing the books he authored on chi gung, were for students who didn't have access to an instructor. ( I'm thinking of "the art of chi gung: preface pg xii, paragraph 2 " those who cannot find an instructor will have to practice with more patience and prudence(but without undue hesitation or trepidation)"). Of course I am not seeking to put you in a hard spot or try to be smarter than you, I believe becoming a sifu is no childs game I respect your authority. Thats why I came here, to ask for answers from people I trust and respect.
      Thank you again for your time and wisdom,
      Peace,
      Lee Sliffe

      Comment


      • #4
        Dear Lee Sisook,

        Andy Sisook did not answer the question "safely" because he doesn't know YOU, but because he doesn't know your friend and her problem. While I find it recommendable and kind that you try and find a solution to your friend's problem, it does seem to me that you came to the forum with a fixed answer already in mind. Everybody here always gives the answer they find the most logical and beneficial, all based on their own experiences. Sadly, this does mean that we don't always say what the OP wants to hear
        .

        I was expecting something a little different given the obvious nature of this situation on a blog and so forth...
        Obvious nature of this situation“? To me, this situation IS obvious, yes. Obvious as in: Your friend still suffers from the aftereffects of a drug gone quite wrong. She should contact a healer or instructor. Maybe you and I have a different perspective on the word "obvious".

        Are there other things that can cause a healer to see / sense this? What could they be?

        "They" could be a lot of things. It is not in my or your place (and we both also don't nearly have the skills necessary) to judge that. Which is why I say: Not only has Andy Sisook given you a safe answer, but a proper and legitimate way to find a solution to your friend's problem.

        Also, I am puzzled about why it wouldn't be good to start with self practice regarding lifting the sky. (...)
        Your question and argument about self-practice are fair enough, but: As it generally seems by your post, your friend suffers terribly from the effects of the drug and can't meditate without severe anxiety, so she'll most probably be unable to actually practice Lifting the Sky correctly. Isnt' it then all the more important to be cost- and time-efficient? If she truly suffers as much, then meeting a healer or instructor is the next logical step.


        Your friend is lucky and does have you as a friend. You've already had an experience of what Qigong can do at the Intensive Qigong course in Hawaii. You should introduce her to a list of healers and instructors, if you really wish to do this for her.

        Healers: http://www.shaolin.org/general/healers-list.html
        Instructors: http://www.shaolin.org/general/instructors-list.html

        I am not seeking to put you in a hard spot or try to be smarter than you, I believe becoming a sifu is no childs game I respect your authority. Thats why I came here, to ask for answers from people I trust and respect.
        That's all good, but it's now up to you to actually respect and heed the advice that is given. If not the advice given by me, then by Andi Sisook.


        As a final note: It generally seems to me that Andy Sisook's post and advice went right over your head because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. What IS your goal? Do you want me to tell you that yes, of course your friend has a blackness and it's a bad blockage of chi that can easily be unblocked with Lifting the Sky?

        That's not going to happen, I'm afraid. It would be absolutely irresponsible to do so.


        In short: Since your friend is having such a hard time, I will include her in my thoughts in my practice today. It's up to you to send her the links so that she can find and contact the healer or instructor closest to her. Since she went to Peru for two days to try a drug, I'm sure she'll manage to find her way to a healer, if that is what she wants.

        I hope I was able to help .

        Warm greetings from Switzerland,
        Fabienne


        Comment


        • #5
          Brother Danateske,
          Thank you for your reply. I was expecting to here from Sifu Cusik in reply. I hope you'll forgive my sarcastic side that comes out periodically, it doesn't seem to come across well in writing.
          There is a question that still is unanswered though regarding that type of symptom.
          "They" could be a lot of things
          Like what!?
          Sincerely,
          Lee

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Lee!

            There is not enough information in your post to give you an exhaustive answer but i will try to help you understand the situation better.

            Picture your consciousness as a room with many many doors and floors, some are open and some are closed. Natural progession would be becoming aware of the doors first, and when ready these doors would open themselve. You may know the saying "When the student is ready the teacher will appear" , same applies here. And when you're ready you would walk up the stairs to another floor. Rinse and repeat ...

            Taking drugs is a forced expansion of awareness without control. Different drugs open different floors and expand your awareness to different doors.
            And because of that you normally have a seasoned guide (the Shaman) who helps you navigate your inner landscape.

            Now i will try to show you what she has done, please bear in mind that there are really not enough information and all i do is giving you an educated guess.

            She went to a shaman and tried Ayahuasca for the first time. It was a two day event and the first day she said even though she drank a few extra glasses of the hallucinogenic brew, nothing happened. Afraid she was 'not doing it right' and would leave without the promised spiritual experience, she told the translator her concerns and plans were made for the next night to help her succeed.

            I assume it was her first experience with psychedelic drugs. Apart from physiological differences in dosage etc., if you take a mind altering drug and nothing happens, let it be.

            You are not ready for it.

            They gave her the first cup, a special cup it seemed to her, and she went on a nightmare trip. She thought she was overdosed and going to die, literally felt all the pain of every suffering person she had ever met in her nursing career and was swallowed up in darkness. After who knows how long of enduring this pain and terror, she came out the other side of the trip and had the "survivor feelings" that come when people who face severe trauma realize their going to live, and was overwhelmed with gratitude and love.

            And that happens when the human ego thinks it knows better than nature. She forced her entry where she didn't belong but not with a key, she took the sledgehammer.

            She had to rush home and go to work right after this and was never able to ask the shaman about any of her experience or have any of it explained. To this day she is confused about the whole experience because even though she has a profound value for loving others now, it came with changes to herself.

            Life is change. Spiritual progression comes with change. If she don't want to change something what does she seek ? If she is looking for flashy lights and fancy feelings i have to tell you that is New Age B***s**t.
            Spirituality is nothing you do just for the kick of it and a 2 day event is really not the way to do it. If she wants to take the shamanistic route she needs to walk the path of a shaman not cherry pick. And that goes for every spiritual system out there.

            She can not meditate without severe anxiety, feels completely changed from the person she used to be and can not get back to who she was, but she wants too.


            "The ghosts i called i can't get rid off now." If you progress naturally you become accustomated to your wider awareness, it becomes normal to you. Same happens if you take drugs, small dosage long enough or too much too fast (but that means to ride with the devil). And that is what happens to her, everytime she sits down and meditates she is looking at a part of her own being that needs work. In her case it looks like she is facing an awful lot at once.

            I can't give you educated advise, but in my opinion she needs grounding, a massive amount of it. Physicsal Workout, Gardening etc. apart from that i would seek a qualified healer. And no meditation it's like fueling the fire she wants to put out.

            Best whishes to you and your friend
            o\
            Chris

            Comment


            • #7
              Dear Lee Sisook

              You are too fixated on finding causes for her symptoms. When it comes to Chi Kung (Qigong) practice and healing, knowing the causes for the symptoms isn't important. Every illness is looked upon as a disruption in the balance of the inherent chi flow in your body, caused by a chi blockage. A healthy balance in any chi flow will be restored by regular practice of Chi Kung. It takes care of any blockages, mentally and physically. Spiritually as well, which could be of further interest to your friend once she has taken care of her current problem. It should be clear that this kind of "shortcut" to spiritual cultivation (which, in hindsight, isn't any cultivation at all) is misguided and can go very wrong
              .
              You can find an earlier discussion here: http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sho...9769-Ayahuasca

              In short: It's not important to know. And any sort of further explanations would probably only delay and take away from the very best advice you've gotten from Andy Sisook in the first place: She should contact a healer or instructor (see lists above), IF this is what she wants.

              I hope things are clearer now.

              Shaolin greeting
              Fabienne (inherently female
              )
              Last edited by Fabienne; 26 July 2014, 03:48 PM. Reason: Grammar


              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Lee,

                sorry to hear your friend is suffering as a result of an ayahuasca experience.

                Depending on your writing (+ its not the first time I witness an ayahuasca story like this) she was asking for trouble, altough she most likely wasnt aware of it.

                The Ayahuasca brew is indeed safe to use, if you know how its correctly done.

                The "...promised spiritual experience" she (after all) paid for + "...she had to rush home and go to work right after this" + maybe no diet before and after etc. are indicators that she had no
                idea how to prepare and deal with this dangerous drug, respectively devine medicine / plant teacher how its called by non wikipedia users in the amazonas area where its in use since millennia.

                Blaming these plants for human errors will continue the absurd policy on so called drugs and prevent further investigations (as it was common till the 60's) to the detriment of humanity.

                While its noble of you to try to help your friend your strategy is misplaced.

                Andy provided a simple yet effective advice "making an appointment with a Shaolin Wahnam Healer" and Fabienne provided the links for you. Instead of trying to figure out a name for a vague description on the internet, pass on these informations to your friend. Then its up to her to act on it or refuse it.

                Wish you all the best and a fully and quick recovery for your friend.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Lee

                  I really hope your friend finds a way to recover from this unfortunate experience.

                  My sense is that if she was willing to travel all the way long to Peru to try that plant, then she should be able to find inner and outer resources to address the repercussions of that event. One thing seems to be obviously clear - she can't address it on her own, but needs help from a qualified and experienced practitioner.

                  With best wishes
                  Jacek

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Lee,

                    Andy is fine (or Sihing/Sisook, whatever is appropriate).

                    Fabienne correctly interpreted my post.

                    My (and our) usual advice is to (1) read one of Sifu's books, (2) try some exercises from the book and then (3) seek out an Instructor.

                    But this is not a usual situation:

                    She thought she was overdosed and going to die, literally felt all the pain of every suffering person she had ever met in her nursing career and was swallowed up in darkness. After who knows how long of enduring this pain and terror, she came out the other side of the trip and had the "survivor feelings" that come when people who face severe trauma realize their going to live, and was overwhelmed with gratitude and love.
                    She can not meditate without severe anxiety, feels completely changed from the person she used to be and can not get back to who she was, but she wants too.
                    She relayed this story in tears.
                    She went to a healer and was told that she could sense a large area of "impenetrable blackness" around her chest and core.
                    It's pretty far away from a usual situation; and I don't recommend anyone in this kind of condition trying to self-heal through Chi Kung from a book.

                    I don't know enough of Ayahausca to comment on it in particular. But in regards to LSD the dangers are well known; there are a number of famous and unknown people who "did not come back" from their trips in the 60/70s. Potentially irreversible damage to the personality structure can be done through psychedelics.

                    Lets hope that is not the case for your friend. I understand your will to help her, but you can only give her advice; what path she chooses to go down is her own.

                    Hence my first post. We don't have enough information to judge her condition, which may be severe, and so I recommend a personal appointment with an Instructor/Healer.

                    If there are no Instructors nearby and you need a quicker solution, my next best advice is to ask her to seek out a genuine and reputed traditional Chinese medicine practitioner in her city. If there are any obvious problems with her heart/mind they will be able to identify and provide treatment. The other advice would be for her to seek out a conventional medical practitioner.
                    Sifu Andy Cusick

                    Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                    Shaolin Qigong

                    sigpic

                    Connect:
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                    "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                    - ancient wisdom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank yo every one

                      I appreciate everyone's answers and found them to be helpful as a whole. It would have been fun to have talked in person to each of you rather than on a forum.
                      Peace,
                      Lee

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andy View Post
                        I don't know enough of Ayahausca to comment on it in particular. But in regards to LSD the dangers are well known; there are a number of famous and unknown people who "did not come back" from their trips in the 60/70s. Potentially irreversible damage to the personality structure can be done through psychedelics.
                        Yes, Sihing Andy, I know someone who has taken LSD then for a longer time - he is now about 60, lives with much blackness (memory blackouts), has extreme highs and depths (depressions), lives with continuous medication and supervision of a psychologist. It took him many years to come to a state of living peacefully with the help of medication ...
                        You are totally right with your warning.

                        Kind Shaolin greetings,
                        Dorit
                        ... alles, alles, alles ist doch auf Liebe aufgebaut ..." (Ellen Auerbach, 1997)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Dorit,

                          Sorry to hear about your friend. Wishing him well.

                          Best,
                          Sifu Andy Cusick

                          Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                          Shaolin Qigong

                          sigpic

                          Connect:
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                          "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                          - ancient wisdom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Lee,

                            Sorry to hear about your friend's experience. But I must say I believe it is quite common. Every single person I know that have tried psychedelic drugs for spiritual practice (whether under a shaman or not) has experienced deviation, from mild to severe. I know that some cultures regard it as highly beneficial but I would say that it is much more rewarding to invest in inner skills like Chi Kung or meditation without resorting to substances. In my opinion, it's a lure: you seem to gain access to some kind of spiritual vision but you get farther and farther away. Why you you want to search outside anyway?

                            I would subscribe my senior's suggestions and advise your friend to get professional help. The sooner, the better.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's a touchy subject, but as with everything, you have good teachers and bad ones.

                              A real shaman, is a highly developed master who can perform high level healing and has a very strong mind.

                              Before I joined Shaolin Wahnam I had a strong interest in these matters, and read quite alot about it before the internet was around.
                              I also experienced with psycho active plants myself many years ago, learning the hard way.

                              These psycho-active plants can give one insights like showing the person that the whole universe is one, the experience can dissolve your ego completely, or give experiences like becoming one with a chair, wall or any object.

                              Spiritual experiences that can give people insights and change them for life.

                              When they are ready, it could be for the better, when they are not it can scatter their mind or develop psychosis.

                              So obviously, when you want to do these things, better make sure you have a real shaman guiding you, not some bogus hippie organising 'workshops' and giving this out to any Tom, Dick or Harry.

                              When you take a psycho-active substance, whether it be a mix of plants like ayahuasca, or a chemical lab-made psycho-active like LSD, you basically 'force' a (spiritual) experience on you. Ready or not.

                              People who are not ready for this 'freak out', or in common slang have 'bad trips'. They just are not ready for it.

                              Normally, a real shaman guides one through such an experience, gives the experience a place, or does healing in their way.
                              Such plants are also considerd sacred, and are usually only used in such circumstances.

                              Unfortunally, so called spiritual people like hippies, self proclamed shamans or whatever, think that they can save the world by doing these substances recreationally, or worse, do 'workshops' and give them out to people who aren't ready for them.

                              That doesn't mean however that these substances don't have a place in the world, they are just very powerful.

                              It looks to me that your friend had a powerful experience she wasn't ready for, and she wants to come 'back' and be her old self again.
                              Maybe she is alright now, but good advice if she is still affected would be to seek out Sifu, an instructor or healer.
                              It will be a blessing in disguise, and by doing high level Chi Kung she will clear the blockage and maybe will be able to give the experience a place.
                              Last edited by Guest; 6 September 2014, 10:05 PM.

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