Iron Palm vs. Cosmos Palm vs. Whatever Palm/Fist/Hand

[AlexKreitner]

I was recently re-reading some of the threads here on "Iron Palm vs. Cosmos Palm" and it has struck me that these terms are really rather relative and, in some ways, detrimental.

I believe that it is inaccurate to describe the result of either practice as Iron Palm or Cosmos Palm. The main difference in all these arts seems to be just the actual practice itself to get to a very similar outcome. All of them reach for the ability to focus energy at one's hand to use as a person wills. Iron skills seem to focus more on solidifying the physical shell more, making it more likely to be used for violence. Plus, if one spends years punching at something and picturing their fist breaking through things it will be tough for them to shift to a mindset of healing with the same hand. But that is simply perspective, it's not the limitations of the tool itself. Energy is energy and it depends on where you focus and will lies as to what you'll do with it.

A person could practice the Cosmos Palm training and do it in a very tense, violent way, and they would end up with something more like an Iron Palm result. Consequently, one could go about hitting various heavy items in a sack in a way that is meditative and internally focused and end up with a result more like Cosmos Palm.

In the end, the duality of internal and external is illusion and really is used only as a crutch for our ego minds. The same could be said for terms like Iron Palm and Cosmos Palm. And the more one focuses on the terms themselves, in other words taking the finger for the Moon, the more you end with fights about how one is more powerful and the other is more healthy and a better choice. But soon you'll find that you've spent so much time arguing about the words that you haven't bothered to put your focus on the art that drew you in the first place.

And even the length of time for practice seems quite desperately relative. I believe that it might take many people three years to "master" Iron Palm only because it's easier for them to believe they can harden their physical fists to do damage. But when you are thinking how cool it'll be to punch through a wall, it will definitely take you ten years to develop with Cosmos Palm training because you have to get over that physical distraction itself to gain anything.

Any thoughts?

[Andy]

Iron palm is Iron palm, and Cosmos palm is Cosmos palm.

The intention, training and results are suitably different to warrant different terminology.

[Antonius]

Alex, how much time have you spent training Cosmos Palm and/or Iron Palm?

A person could practice the Cosmos Palm training and do it in a very tense, violent way, and they would end up with something more like an Iron Palm result.

This statement shows me that you don't have much experience with Cosmos Palm. If you practice Cosmos Palm in a tense, violent way, then you won't get Cosmos Palm and you won't get Iron Palm. You'll get...nothing.

Consequently, one could go about hitting various heavy items in a sack in a way that is meditative and internally focused and end up with a result more like Cosmos Palm.

This statement shows me that you don't have much experience with our Iron Palm training. In our school, Iron Palm is done in a meditative, internally focused state.

Since you don't really seem to understand Cosmos Palm nor Iron Palm, I don't think that your conclusions about them hold any water.

[Darryl]

Hi Alex,

A person could practice the Cosmos Palm training and do it in a very tense, violent way, and they would end up with something more like an Iron Palm result

If a person practiced the Cosmos Palm training in a very tense, violent way, would they end up with something more like an Iron Palm result?

See the difference?

[AlexKreitner]

Thank you for the replies.

Yes, you are correct Antonius that you have more book knowledge and experience with both forms of practice. Which is why I asked the question here, so that I could get a more knowledgeable and experienced reply.

If there are inaccuracies in what I said, I'm happy to have them corrected so I can understand it better. Although I was hoping they would be pointed out in order to facilitate a greater discussion.

What I was looking to do was to move beyond the simple wording of things to a greater truth. Labels such as "Iron Palm" and "Cosmos Palm" have been invented by individual people and are not fixed in stone. What they mean to everyone here is not what they will mean to every person living. And certainly nothing I'm saying is intended to demean or quantify the teachings of this school. Especially since I don't begin to be knowledgeable enough about their specifics to do so.

I'm speaking in the general sense of a human being attempting to manipulate his or her energy and body to a certain end. And in that, I'm suggesting that labeling the path and the outcome a certain title and then attempting to communicate that to other people eventually leads to a distraction and a watering down of the original intention.

And because I don't know the specifics of the two paths well enough, I would really like it if someone who does could take my suggestion of their sameness and expand on it or explain why they feel it isn't the same.

[David Langford]

I've heard from clairvoyants that they see different configurations of energy body systems in practicioners of different paradigms. Something to think about. What may hold true for one paradigm, might not for another. *Shrugs* Thoughts?

[AlexKreitner]

I've heard from clairvoyants that they see different configurations of energy body systems in practicioners of different paradigms. Something to think about. What may hold true for one paradigm, might not for another. *Shrugs* Thoughts?

That is fascinating. And as someone who has been slowly awakening from Western Science and it's neat categories, the mind-blasting variety of existence that these things suggests is amazing!

To me, at least, it suggests that everything and anything really is true. In other words, our bodies could actually be working off of potentially opposing systems of action depending on our beliefs.

I'm guessing you might have heard that in connection with things like chakras and energy meridians. Which is incredibly cool to imagine that someone who believes they have a chakra system actually does have glowing wheels of colored light, and someone who follows an energy meridian system has passageways of colorless energy instead.

[MaxP]

Hi Alex,

I'm suggesting that labeling the path and the outcome a certain title and then attempting to communicate that to other people eventually leads to a distraction and a watering down of the original intention.

...

I would really like it if someone who does could take my suggestion of their sameness and expand on it or explain why they feel it isn't the same.

I think that Past Masters of these Arts gave names to them for the sake of convenience. Two different names for two different arts. Simple. To do otherwise would be unnecessarily complicated.

Attempting to communicate the concepts behind these names proves difficult mainly because people have no direct experience of said concepts.

The oft quoted mango analogy works well to illustrate this: Two people stand beside a mango. One has tasted of it, the other has not. The first says it is sweet. The second says 'in what way is it sweet?'

The trouble arises when the second party continues to fruitlessly intellectualize and speculate on the taste of the mango, badgering the first party to convince him it tastes sweet.

All he needs to do is taste it

This is why I believe it is unnecessary to expand on the differences/similarities between those Arts as you have asked. The difference between them is self evident. My seniors have clearly demonstrated this in their posts.

Warmest Regards,

Max

[AlexKreitner]

Hi Alex,

I think that Past Masters of these Arts gave names to them for the sake of convenience. Two different names for two different arts. Simple. To do otherwise would be unnecessarily complicated.

Attempting to communicate the concepts behind these names proves difficult mainly because people have no direct experience of said concepts.

The oft quoted mango analogy works well to illustrate this: Two people stand beside a mango. One has tasted of it, the other has not. The first says it is sweet. The second says 'in what way is it sweet?'

The trouble arises when the second party continues to fruitlessly intellectualize and speculate on the taste of the mango, badgering the first party to convince him it tastes sweet.

All he needs to do is taste it

This is why I believe it is unnecessary to expand on the differences/similarities between those Arts as you have asked. The difference between them is self evident. My seniors have clearly demonstrated this in their posts.

Warmest Regards,

Max

Although one doesn't always have 13 spare years to experience both arts in order to know the difference for themselves to then choose or find out that they really are the same. That's why communication between people is important so that you can sometimes shortcut experience by speaking to people who have it. Otherwise you'd spend your whole life trying everything yourself to decide what to do with your time.

And I agree that the differences are self evident. Which is why I'm discussing the similarities instead. Because it's very easy to always discuss why one thing isn't another, but it's harder to understand how everything is also one.

[Ish]

They aren't the same, cosmos palm is softer and more internal, iron palm is harder and more external (though trained correctly of course it is internal too).
The internal force of iron palm would be consolidated and localised at the palms.
The internal force of cosmos palm would be more flowing and also relatively localised at palms but much more flexible than iron palm.

The iron palm has an external training advantage of skin, bone & flesh becoming stronger from external impact, so generally the development of martial force would usually be quicker - internal & external training correctly combined is more powerful.

But the chi manipulation, health and mind development would be some advantages for cosmos palm training.

Feel free to correct any mistakes.

[Adam B]

What I was looking to do was to move beyond the simple wording of things to a greater truth.

If this is truly your goal, then you would achieve it much faster by practicing either genuine iron palm or cosmos palm than having overly intellectual discussions about the differences and similarities over the internet. In my experience, every single "Aha" moment I've had in regards to kung fu came about through practice, not through intellectualization.

Edit: One question you might want to ask yourself is if you believe great truth can be found intellectually or if it's something that must be experienced.

Best of luck,

[AlexKreitner]

If this is truly your goal, then you would achieve it much faster by practicing either genuine iron palm or cosmos palm than having overly intellectual discussions about the differences and similarities over the internet. In my experience, every single "Aha" moment I've had in regards to kung fu came about through practice, not through intellectualization.

Edit: One question you might want to ask yourself is if you believe great truth can be found intellectually or if it's something that must be experienced.

Best of luck,

I believe a greater truth can be found intellectually, but only understood through experience. We have equipped ourselves with an intellect for a reason, and to dismiss it as the bogeyman of existence is lopsided. Its main purpose is to allow us to observe and make decisions about what we want to experience. It's when it becomes the sole, driving force of our existence that it becomes a hindrance.

Everything should come in moderation, right? I believe it's called the Middle Path. Throwing out one aspect of you as always wrong isn't really balanced.

Besides, if experience was the only worthwhile pursuit, why even create this forum? Even sharing an experience invites intellectualization.

[Andrew]

I'm suggesting that labeling the path and the outcome a certain title and then attempting to communicate that to other people eventually leads to a distraction and a watering down of the original intention.

Then don't label. Just practice .

I don't really care whether what I am practicing is called Iron Palm or Cosmos Palm or Date Palm or anything else. What I care about is my aims and objectives for training. If the practice will deliver what I am aiming at and do so as wholesomely as possible, then I am on the right path.

And I agree that the differences are self evident. Which is why I'm discussing the similarities instead. Because it's very easy to always discuss why one thing isn't another, but it's harder to understand how everything is also one.

[AlexKreitner]

What I care about is my aims and objectives for training. If the practice will deliver what I am aiming at and do so as wholesomely as possible, then I am on the right path.

How do you come to the conclusion about what your aims and objectives should be?

And I'm sorry, I don't understand what your confusion is, even with the bolding, to respond.

[Andrew]

The aims and objectives come first. Then I choose the best method available to achieve them and learn this method from the best authority available. Then I simply follow the method as best I can. At various stages I compare my achievements to my original aims and objectives, thus evaluating my progress and the validity of my choice of method and teacher.

Why am I confused, you ask? You have taken two things that are clearly different (according to your own admission). What is the merit in then trying to find similarities? It's like taking a kid's bicycle and a ferrari and then trying to discuss the similarities. What's the point?