Taijiquan training methods

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hi Everybody,

I’m starting this thread so that we can talk about the differences and similarities between the training methods used in Wahnam Taijiquan and other Taijiquan schools.

Drunken Boxer, you gave us a little idea of what a training session is like with your master in the Taijiquan/Western Boxing thread. I was wondering if you’d care to talk a little about the kind of stances you use. Also, you mentioned that you work on combat applications. Do you also train combat sequences leading on to free sparring?

One last thing (for now); You talked about starting the class with Chi Kung. Does that mean that you don’t consider the rest of your training to be Chi Kung, or do you use the term Chi Kung to describe some specific exercises, such as force/stance training.?

I fully respect your wish not to disclose anything that your master would deem inappropriate and will understand if you wish to write in very general terms.

I’m looking forward to reading what you (or any of the other members of the forum) have to say on these or any other points to do with Taijiquan (training).

Best wishes,

[Kaijet]

Trainingsmethods

Hello Jeffrey, hello all,

2 month ago I pariticipate on a seminar with Sifu Shen Xi Jing a well known Taijiquan Grandmaster in China.
In the years from 1980 -1988 he won all Taijiquan tournaments and championships in forms and tuishoui. After that the leader of the Taijiquan organisation in China tell him to stop the participation of Tajiquan championships or tournaments so that also other can win them. He sayed well ok if I have to and then he went for all Sanda tournaments and championships for an other 4 or 5 years until I think ´92 and he won them all too.
After the seminar I knew why he won all tournaments the trainingmethods are similar to our Wahnam methods.

1. most importance, STANCE-TRAINING ZHAN ZHUANG
2. FOODWORK; BUFA
3. Application
4. Sticky hands, Tuishou
5. freesparring, Sanda
6. forms

Jeffrey you know Bernd my Wahnam assistance instructore and at the time as he went with me to your seminar with Sifu in swizzerland he trained only 1 year under Sifu Shen Xijing.
On that example you can see how important the training methods are so we can be happy with our.
Very interesting is also that Sifu Shen Xi Jing likes to proof his art against other styles and he sayed with the right Taijiquan the other arts are no problems to handle.
Greetings to my lazy Taijiquan brother Jeffrey.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Lazy or smart??

Gruss Dich Kai Siheng!

Thanks for your post. It's inspiring to know that a great Taijiquan Grandmaster uses very similar training methods. I'd love to partake in a seminar with Sifu Shen Xi Jung and I hope I get the chance one day.

Of course I remember Bernd's superior internal force and sparring skills from Männedorf. Please say hello to him from me.

Just on another note Kai, I've been enjoying all your posts on the forum. Congratulations on your English! We're lucky to have a big brother who can write from experience.

Herzliche Grüsse

[drunken boxer]

Jeffrey, I’ll try and answer your questions as best I can.

Firstly, I’m sorry, but most of the moves, stances etc we use I don’t know the names of, I just watch the master and copy the movements or forms.
I do know that one of the chi kung exercises resembles the three circle stance, only it involves movement rather than standing still. Standing meditation is done before and after the chi kung.
My teacher believes zhan zhuang when practiced by a beginner for too long can cause tension so we concentrate more on the moving chi kung.

Secondly, As far as combat application goes, the whole training is very combat oriented – every part of the forms are used in combat application, and even the chi kung seems mainly concerned with developing the body and energy for combat, teaching you to relax, sink chi to dan tien, and develop force and good body alignment.
In the combat application part of training it usually goes like this:
Usually I attack with a punch or kick then the Master demonstrates how to use a part of the taijiquan form to block or defend against the attack and to reply with a strike or a lock, usually in one smooth movement. Then he attacks me, slowly at first, and I attempt to use the same move to counter the attack, repeatedly at various speeds till I get it right.
Sometimes we do push hands, and sometimes we spar where I box using western boxing techniques and he uses taiji techniques to box me – he blocks everything I throw and taps me lightly with his strikes – its fascinating, his footwork, reactions and hand speed is phenomenal – way above anything I have seen before (even though I have seen many Irish champion boxers of various weights and ages, and trained with two professional boxers). I have heard about kungfu masters who “fill the gaps in your defence like water” and he embodies this. Interestingly, many of these particular techniques although different from orthodox western boxing techniques, would be perfectly legal in a boxing ring – something that particularly fascinates me.
However I don’t think I would call this free sparring – to me free sparring is what we do sometimes in boxing where the objective is to knock out or finish the opponent. Although I am free to attack any way I want, I think to call it free sparring would be doing my master a great injustice as he could finish it in a split second any time if he wanted.
I must point out that I train one-on-one with the master – it is not a class with many students, and therefore I only do the combat applications with him. This is why I still go boxing and kickboxing, so that I can test my new techniques on fighters of a more similar standard to myself.

Thirdly, I don’t really consider the rest of the class to be chi kung apart from the 15 mins specific chi kung at the start and end. The rest of the class focuses on forms and combat, but it still involves relaxing the body, sinking chi to dan tien, and breath control so I suppose maybe it could be called intrinsic chi kung. Would you call this chi kung jeffrey?
But the 15 minutes at the start and end is where we focus on chi kung. For example if in Wahnam you practised “lifting the sky” then worked on forms and sparring etc then finished with “carrying the moon”. (I don’t know if this is done in Wahnam or not?)

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hi there Drunken Boxer,

Many thanks for such an informative post. It sounds to me like you are extremely fortunate to be training with your master.

Having participated in a Chi Kung course with Sifu Wong in Dublin, you will be familiar with the concept of Chi flow. Does your master also place emphasis on allowing the chi to flow and does chi flow form part of your training? When I teach (and when I train on my own), the training session is interspersed with Chi flows and in more advanced training, we perform the sets in Chi flow.

You might find the following thread interesting.

http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522

Apart from the fact that the sequences use Taijiquan patterns and that they are based on Taijiquan principles and theory, this is the same progressive method of training that we apply in Wahnam Taijiquan. Thanks to Anthony Sihing, who was kind enough to put it all in writing.

Best wishes,

[drunken boxer]

You are absolutely right Jeffrey, I do consider myself extremely fortunate to have met my master and been accepted as a student. Every day I thank my lucky stars, God, karma or whatever it was that led our paths to cross!
Thanks for the info on Wahnam training methods. There is a good chance that I will try to sample them myself in future, as I am considering going to Malaysia for an intensive taijiquan course some day.

To answer your question, I am familiar with the concept of chi flow, but unfortunately it is only the concept I know at present, I can’t say I have experienced it. I told people on the course that I wasn’t sure if I experienced it or not and they said I would know for sure when I did – therefore I haven’t experienced chi flow yet. The only things I feel during chi kung or taijiquan are occasional heaviness in various parts of my body, heat, and tingling in my hands and sometimes my forehead (maybe because I damaged my hands and head through years of boxing? )
My master emphasises moving chi through the body in chi kung, but not in forms or combat application, but this may be because my forms are not good enough yet, I really don’t know.
You say in advanced training you do sets in chi flow - I don't think I'm capable of advanced training yet!

[Mark 1]

Hi Jeffry,

Sorry, I've taken so long in posting after our conversation in Brighton a few weeks ago, but anyway I've finally gotten chance.

I've been training tai chi chuan with a long term student of Master Lam Kam Chuan. Our classes last an hour and quarter, start with a short warm up (knees, hips and arm rotations) then a little chi gung (a couple of the Ba Duan Jin, or Zhan Zhung, although there's always a dedicated Zhan Zhung class after the tai chi chuan class too) or a little massage. Then if we're learning a form we'll get taught a short step of the form, and practice that. It takes about a year to learn the short form that takes between 5 and 10 minutes to perform (We are encouraged to vary the speed, as well as the depth of the postures and the intention we perform the set with when we practice), but thats because we only have a class once a week. If we've learnt the form we get to practice push hands, first single handed mode and later dual handed mode. We are also taught how to intergrate steps of the tai chi form into our push hands (this is naturally much easier with some steps than with others!) Although my teacher tends to emphasise principles more than individual techniques, and insists that each step in the form can be used in a variety of ways depending on your skill and internal strength.

Chi flow is not included in what we do, on the contrary zhan zhung or standing still is emphasised, although since training with Master Wong I often can't help having a chi flow after practising the form particuly at home. My experience of chi during the form has increased dramatically since attending my first chi gung course, about a year ago!

Mark

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hi Mark,

No worries (I'm home in Australia now mate) about it taking you a while to post. It was great to catch up with you a couple of weeks ago at Dan's class in Brighton. Thanks for telling us a little about the training methods used in your Taijiquan classes.

Take care and enjoy your training.

[Mark 1]

Good to hear from you Jeffrey,
I've just been on a great tai chi workshop today with an Australian called Glenn Blythe! It concentrated on establishing your base and allowing the movements to be generated from sinking your chi. Its hard to explain but under his direction you literally fall (gently) into the postures! He's a great teacher, who you can tell has really thought about what he's doing because his explainations are startlingly clear. And he's got the skill to really show you what he's talking about too! (He was uprooting people with a finger while standing on one leg at one point! If you're anywhere near Queensland I recommend you check him out. Tai Chi School of Yi Chi Li.

[subclock]

Hi Jeffrey ,

I am currently in the Beginners Class in my Yang Style Taijiquan school . Our grandmaster is the now passed away, Duan Yu Chang . Unfortunately I only started at our school after he had already passed away, and never had the honour to meet him . I saw a video of him at 91 years old performing the Schimitar Form as well as flinging students all over the place with his Pushing Hands . In a few months ( or whenever my Sifu thinks I am ready ) , I will move up to the Advanced Class . That doesn't actually mean that I will be an advanced student , but rather , the advanced class is where all the combat training and the serious fa jin training starts .

The beginners class is there to teach you the forms , correct postures , and for you to develop Flowing Chi . You also need to become quite strong in your legs to be able to handle what is waiting in the Advanced Class ( lots of low stances and stance training ). I can't explain everything that goes on in the advanced class ,because I don't know everything that they do . I do know that they train Combat Sequences leading up to free sparring , inluding various forms of Pushing Hands , as well as combat sequences with the Sword , Schimitar , and Staff . They also train a kind of Taiji Golden Bell , which involves Stance Training and swinging your arms and waist and letting your arms spontaneosly slap against your body ( which we started in the Beginners Class ) .

My current class generally goes like this ( although we have variations ) ;

We start with a sinking and turning exercise to get our waists nice and loose and relaxed . Then we do an exercise called 7 Shooting Stars ( I think I might have the name wrong , but all those words are definitely in the name ) , then we do a few Chi Kung exercises , followed by The 8 Pieces Of Brocade . And yes , all our training is considered Chi Kung ,not just the actual Chi Kung exercises . Our Sifu says we learn them because they are enjoyable . We will then do the Short Yang Form based on Cheng Man Ching 37 movements , concentrating on rooting stances , sinking energy to the Dan Tien , and our Sifu will make sure that there are no Combat related weaknesses in our postures and stances . Then we will generally do Lifting The Sky .Then we will train the Tai Ji Jian Straight Sword Form . Then we train the Tai Ji Dao Schimitar Form . Then we will go into the Three Circle Stance and hold it . Then we will finish the class off with some Pushing Hands .My Sifu often reminds us of, and makes us practise ,singular applications of the patterns so that our form does not lose it's combatitive aspects ,to prepare for the Advanced Class .

I have never been in another Taijiquan school , so I don't know much about how difficult other school's training is . I can say this ; I have trained in a very tough Kung Fu school when i was younger for a little while . My Taijiquan School is just as tough . The only difference in the toughness of the training is ; When I finish my Taijiquan Class , even though my whole body is sweating and shaking and my legs feel like they are about to fall off , by the time I get to my car , all my aches and pains are gone and I feel absolutely fantastic and relaxed and full of energy . When I came home from that Kung Fu school , I had aches and pains and sprains for days afterwards .

Very Interested to hear about the other Taijiquan Exponents Training Methods on this forum .
Best Wishes and good luck with your training
Kevin

[Jeffrey Segal]

Thanks Kevin

Hi Kevin!

Thanks for your great post. It is truly inspiring to learn that there are schools where dedicated practitioners can learn genuine Taijiquan and that the methods used are strikingly similar to those used in Wahnam Taijiquan. I’m delighted to hear that your training is always Qigong and it sounds to me like you have a wonderful teacher. Your “beginners” class sounds pretty amazing.

One question (which I’m sorry if I already asked you somewhere else) comes to mind. What sort of stances to you use, particularly what sort of Bow-Arrow stance? I’m interested in knowing about the position of the feet, the length of the stance and the relationship of the heels to each other. In Wahnam Taijiquan for example, the front and back foot are hooked in, the heels are in a line that is perpendicular to the direction one is facing and the length of the stance is the same as in the Horse Riding stance. If you are reading this Drunken Boxer, I’d be very interested in knowing what your Bow-Arrow looks like. I already talked about this with Mark when we met in Brighton and his stance is not as long as ours but the front foot is definitely hooked in.

Here is something that I think will interest you Kevin. Once, during a Qigong course in Brighton I was enjoying a Qi flow and my waist, arms and hands (in relaxed fists) started turning, slapping against my body (and not all that softly either). After the exercise was finished, Sifu came up to me and said “That’s the start of Golden Bell training”.

Thanks again for posting Kevin and please let us know how your training is going and about any “discoveries” you make along the way. I hope that we meet one day and have the opportunity to train together.

From the Heart,

[subclock]

Hi Jeffrey ,

Thank you for your quick response and kind words .

The stances we use are as follows ;

Horse Stance , Bow - arrow , False Leg , Unicorn Step , Ring Step , Single Leg , Goat Stance , Four Six , Slanting Body , Seven Star , Half Kneel , and Cat Stance . ( I have used the names Wong Kiew Kit uses in The Art Of Shaolin Kung Fu ,so that there is no confusion ) . We also use a sweeping step and a step where you grind the inside of your heel down the opponents shin .

From my observations in class ,I would say that we seem to have two kinds of Bow - Arrow Stances . The one we use is identical to the one you describe . The other one is almost the same but the line that would run along the heels , perpendicular to the direction you are facing , would run from the hooked in toe of the front foot , to the back foot's heel . When we do a move like Green Dragon we seem to use the one different to yours , and when we do a move like Double Shouldering we use the one like you do . I am not sure why . I will ask my Sifu about the reasoning.

Quite frankly ,the idea of sparring and training with members of the Wahnam institute scares the heck out of me ! I think I would feel so out of my depth , although it would simultaneously be one of the greatest moments of my life . I hope I have the honour one day of having you mop the floor with me

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[Antonius]

Quite frankly ,the idea of sparring and training with members of the Wahnam institute scares the heck out of me !

Somebody ate too much Humble Pie for dinner!

First of all, sweeping generalizations like this can be tricky. You have yet to meet anyone in Wahnam. I have. Believe me when I say we come in all shapes and sizes.

Not everyone in Wahnam is a powerful fighter, nor do they aim to be. Some of Sifu's gongfu students train lots of force but hardly train sparring (no partners). Sifu's qigong students don't train sparring at all. Some of Sifu's students are relative beginners, while some of his grand-students have many years of martial arts under their belt. Some of Sifu's students (like me and Darryl) are seasoned fighters. Some (like Kai) are extremely well-seasoned fighters.

So it all depends on who you're talking about. If you have any sparring experience whatsoever, then you would "mop the floor" with my student (I currently have only one). However, if you are relatively new to sparring, then I would probably have my way with you. Meanwhile, Kai would mop the floor with both of us -- at the same time.

I think I would feel so out of my depth , although it would simultaneously be one of the greatest moments of my life .

You might feel out of your depth, or you might make your partner feel that way. In my experience, it's all a bunch of talk until you get together and walk (i.e. meet and spar).

[drunken boxer]

bow arrow stance

In response to Jeffrey’s earlier question I don’t know the names of most of the stances or movements we use, so to be honest I don’t know what the bow-arrow stance is, even though I may practice it every day for all I know!

But I can give you some more info on what I train – I should have mentioned this earlier, our style is Chen-style Hunyuanxinyi Taijiquan. It was created by Feng Zhiqiang, by integrating what he had learnt from two other legendary masters, Chen-Style Taijiquan Master Chen Fake and Xingyi Master Hu Yaozhen. More information on these three masters can be found in the following article.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/FZQinterview.html

[Dan]

Meanwhile, Kai would mop the floor with both of us -- at the same time.

Lol. Reminds me of the five person face down spread-eagle pin he comfortably escaped from in Malaysia in May, or the moment on the warrior training project last weekend when I gripped his wrist with a tiger claw and he gave me that wide eye look and said “oh, so you want to try and grip me now?” If it wasn’t for the fact that his students sweep the training hall for him I am sure he could have used me as the broom!