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  • 10 Questions on Shaolin Chin-Na

    Dear Family,

    I am happy to announce that Sigung agreed to answer 10 Questions on Shaolin Chin Na!

    I would like to use the opportunity and ask the first question:

    Dear Sigung,

    you mentioned that Chin-Na is one of the three ultimates of Shaolin, the other being Dim Mark and Nei Kung. Could you explain why these three Arts are ultimate and what particularly does Chin-Na contribute to being among the others. Also what is meant by Nei Kung in this context. And finally what is the essence of Chin Na and how does the mastery of China Na become visible?

    With kind regards,
    Anton.
    Last edited by Anton S.; 30th May 2016, 05:23 PM.
    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

    Anton Schmick
    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

    shaolinwahnamchina.com
    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
    http://kungfu-luebeck.de


  • #2
    Dear Sifu,

    thank you very much for creating the opportunity to learn Chin-na in China for us! It will be a wonderful and interesting course, I am sure.

    Dear Sitaigung,

    thank you for agreeing to answer our questions regarding one of the ultimate arts! Mine are the following:

    Could you please elaborate on the various levels of Chin-na, e.g. the physical, energy and mind levels? How and when can we use these and the benefits from training Chin-na in our everyday lives?

    Finally, how long would a typical Shaolin Wahnam student need to train this art until he or she can confidently and safely use Chin-na in sparring with practitioners from other martial arts? How about in sparring with other Shaolin Wahnam students?

    Thank you very much for your time and effort!

    With kindest regards from Germany,
    Steffen
    May all beings be happy

    Thank you.

    Comment


    • #3
      My question on Shaolin Chin-na - handling multiple opponents?

      Dear Sifu,


      Would Shaolin Chin-na be suitable for handling multiple opponents?

      If so, which sequences would be most suitable? And how would the tactics and strategies be different from Choy Lee Fut, an art known for fighting multiple opponents?


      With respect,
      FJ

      Comment


      • #4
        Dear Sifu ,

        Your goodself have stated that in the hands of someone with adequate internal force and "shen" , a Dim-Mak strike will still be effective even if the vital point is not dotted accurately . Is this also true of a Chin-Na grip-hold ?

        Assuming all combat efficiency factors ( techniques , skills , internal force, shen , etc ) are equal in two warriors A & B who apply chin-na against an average blackbelter , except B does not have detailed knowledge of physical anatomy ( eg joints , tendon-muscles positions-attachments ) and energy anatomy ( eg vital point positions , point & meridian correlation to organs ) , how would both A & B compare to each other in chin-na combat application success in approximate percentages ?

        Thank you Sifu

        Thank you Dr. Anton S.

        Last edited by Damian Kissey; 5th June 2016, 02:32 AM.
        Damian Kissey
        Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
        www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Dear Sifu and Anton Sijat,

          Thank you for another Q&A series!

          Here is my question, including a follow-up:

          Can Sifu please elaborate on the three points of time in countering a chin-na attack that are incorporated in each of the 72 chin-na sequences?

          Also, is the point of time when the grip/hold is already applied usually too late for countering, unless the responder has at least as much internal force (for protection) as the initiator?


          Thank you very much!

          Best wishes,

          Leo
          Sifu Leonard Lackinger

          Wahnam Wien Logo

          Shaolin Wahnam Wien
          Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung
          Southern Shaolin Kung Fu
          Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan

          Shaolin Wahnam Wien on facebook
          Shaolin Wahnam Wien on YouTube

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you for another wonderful Q&A, Sifu, and to Anton siheng for facilitating this thread!

            I've always been curious about the role of qin na in Baguazhang. My personal experience practicing Baguazhang and other martial arts has impressed upon me the immense usefulness of qin na, despite some translations of the Methods of Baguazhang deriding it, saying things such as:
            Baguazhang does not emphasize joint-locking or grabbing,
            My skill is not superior if I grab a person.
            Grabbing is not appropriate to deal with multiple opponents,
            It is best to employ a direct attack and directly withdraw.
            (translation provided by masters Frank Allen and Tina Chunna Zhang of Cheng style Baguazhang)

            I am curious to know how Sifu came to choose the various qin na techniques for our Swimming Dragon set and, if Sifu is also willing to share, if there are any skills and force training methods that Sifu feels would most benefit the qin na skills of a practitioner of our Baguazhang, or other styles that may or may not be particularly well known for qin na.

            Thank you again!

            Sincerely with much respect,
            -Fred Chu
            I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

            Comment


            • #7
              Dear Sigung,

              Thank you for this opportunity!

              To expand on Sipak Damian's question, would you be willing to share with us some of the best anatomical locations for separating tendons, gripping vital points, and wronging joints, and how to best go about accomplishing each of these three aspects of chin na gripping in application?

              Many thanks with Shaolin Salute,

              David
              Shaolin Wahnam USA

              "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey everyone,

                thanks for your fantastic questions!
                Good news:
                three questions are left

                Best regards,
                Anton.
                Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                Anton Schmick
                Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                shaolinwahnamchina.com
                http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                Comment


                • #9
                  Differences between Chin-Na and Dim-mak

                  I'll ask another question if it's alright!

                  Dear Sifu,

                  As Chin-Na is one considered of the 3 ultimates in Shaolin Kungfu (the other 2 being Dim Mak and Nei Kung),
                  Could you elaborate on the differences between the 3 ultimates?

                  More specifically, how are the effects, applications and philosophy different between Chin-Na and Dim-mak?

                  Would there be a reason why an exponent would use Chin-Na over Dim-mak in certain situations (or vice-versa)?


                  Respectfully,
                  FJ

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A key aspect of our Dim Mark training was first to learn how to remedy any ill effects of the applied skill/technique. As manipulation of energy is included in Chin Na, how important is knowledge of remedy to Chin Na training? Does such knowledge also extend to the more physical damage that can be caused (e.g. Dit Da?)?

                    As a follow up, if I may, can Chin Na be used for healing?
                    Sifu Andrew Barnett
                    Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

                    Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
                    Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
                    Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

                    Chi Kung Courses: May 2019 in Landquart CH
                    QEA Discussion Forum: www.qea.ch/forum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dear Sifu,

                      The Brazilian variant of Jiu-Jitsu is now a popular and respected martial art worldwide.

                      Please can you discuss the similarities and differences between Shaolin Qin-na and modern Jiu-Jitsu?

                      Many thanks,
                      Sifu Andy Cusick

                      Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                      Shaolin Qigong

                      sigpic

                      Connect:
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                      "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                      - ancient wisdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Looks like we´ve got ten intriguing questions!
                        Thanks to all involved
                        Can´t wait to read the answers
                        Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                        May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                        Anton Schmick
                        Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                        shaolinwahnamchina.com
                        http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                        http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                        http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dear all,

                          Sifu very generously agreed to let me post this question in addition to the other 10:

                          Dear Sifu,

                          Could you discuss the benefits of Chin Na in daily life?

                          Many thanks for your time and for allowing this extra question!

                          Best wishes,

                          Roeland Dijkema
                          www.shaolinwahnam.nl
                          www.shaolinholland.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That is great!

                            So we have 11 questions in total!


                            Dear Sigung,

                            thank you very much for answering my question


                            Question 1

                            You mentioned that Chin-Na is one of the three ultimates of Shaolin, the other being Dim Mark and Nei Kung. Could you explain why these three Arts are ultimate and what particularly does Chin-Na contribute to being among the others? Also what is meant by Nei Kung in this context? And finally what is the essence of Chin Na and how does the mastery of China Na become visible?

                            Sifu Anton Schmick


                            Answer

                            The three ultimates of Shaolin Kungfu are chin-na, dim mark and nei kung. They should not be confused with the three ultimates of martial arts, which are One-Finger Zen, Strike-Across-Space Palm and Marvelous Fist.

                            The use of Chinese words in Romanized letters can be problematic. “Chin-na” is in Mandarin Chinese, but in Romanized spelling it is spelt as “qin-na”. “Q” in Romanized Chinese is pronounced like the English “ch”. We use “chin-na” and not “qin-na’ to maintain uniformity and to avoid mispronunciation, just as we use “chi kung” and not “qigong”, and “Tao” and not “Dao”. The same two words pronounced as “chin-na” in Mandarin are pronounced as “kam-na” in Cantonese.

                            Chin-na, dim mark and nei kung are considered the ultimates of Shaolin because of the following reasons:

                            1. These three ultimates demand very high-level skills.
                            2. It needs much time to develop the required skills, at least 10 years, probably 20. Please note that if a practitioner is prepared to train for 20 years, it does not mean he can develop the required skills.
                            3. The arts are very rare, though many people may like to acquire them.
                            4. The arts are highly valuables. Chin-na and dim mark, for example, are compassionate and effective ways of fighting; nei kung contributes to good health, vitality, longevity, peak performance, mental clarity and spiritual achievement.

                            There are two aspects in “chin-na”, which are “chin” and “na”. “Chin” means “hold”, and “na” means “grip”. But the two actions are performed in fast succession that they appear as one action.

                            Chin-na is often executed using the tiger-claw, the eagle-claw or the dragon-claw.

                            “Nei kung” means “internal arts”, and is in Mandarin pronunciation. In Romanized Chinese it is written as “neigong”. We use “nei kung”, which is also widely used in kungfu literature, instead of “neigong” to avoid mispronunciation. The Romanized Chinese “g” and “o” are pronounced like the English “k” and “u”, but many people may mispronounce them as the English “g” and “o”.

                            In contrast to “nei kung” is “wai kung”, or “noi kung” and “ngoi kung” in Cantonese.

                            One must be aware that kungfu terms and chi kung terns are unlike scientific terms. Kungfu terms and chi kung terms are used for convenience, and are not definitive, which actually means restricting. In the context here, “nei kung” refers to internal arts for internal force or for health, and not for external fighting. Here, “nei kung’ refers to such practices like Sinew Metamorphosis and sitting meditation. When you use chin-na or dim mark for fighting, even when you use internal force, it is considered “wai kung” or external arts.

                            (Part 2 follows)
                            Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                            May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                            Anton Schmick
                            Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                            shaolinwahnamchina.com
                            http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                            http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                            http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              here comes the second part

                              (Continued from Part 1)

                              “Dim mark” is in Cantonese, and it means “dotting meridians”. Many masters of Southern Shaolin Kungfu speak Cantonese. Cantonese is not only the prominent Chinese dialect in south China, but also in most areas when overseas Chinese have settled, like Southeast Asia, Australia, Europe and North America. So many kungfu terms are in Cantonese pronunciation. It was also in Cantonese that I learned most of the kungfu terms.

                              In Mandarin, dim mark is “dian xue”. “Dian” means “dot”, and “xue” means “energy-points”. So, there is a slight difference in meaning, represented in “mark” and “xue”. In Cantonese, the concept is dotting meridians; in Mandarin it is dotting energy points.

                              Both concepts are correct. Although an expert usually dots an energy point, if he dots a meridian, he will also disable an opponent from further fighting.

                              Dim mark is wrongly translated as a “touch of death”. It is actually a compassionate way of fighting. Although a victim of dim mark may eventually die if he is foolish enough not to relieve himself of his suffering, a dim mark injury is reversible. A dim mark victim can seek another kungfu master or competent Chinese trained doctor to restore his energy flow in his meridian and be healthy again. Western trained doctors may not be of much help because clearing energy blockage is not part of their medical training.

                              It was simply incredible that course participants at my Special Dragon Strength Course learned dim mark in just five days, besides learning many other things. If a master could learn dim mark in five years, he would consider himself very, very
                              Lucky. Course participants at my Special Dragon Strength
                              Course needed prior kungfu experience, but masters too needed many years of experience before they could become masters.

                              The essence of chin-na is to disable an opponent so that he cannot continue to fight but without causing him irreversible injury. There are three main ways in chin-na to disable an opponent, which are:

                              Separating tendons
                              Wronging joints
                              Gripping vital points

                              When a chin-na expert separates an opponent’s tendons, dislocates his joints or grips his vital points, he disables the opponent from further fighting. Hence, chin-na is different from locks. When you release a lock on an opponent, he can fight you again, but not in chin-na.

                              Chin-na is a compassionate way of fighting. The injury, while disabling at the time, is reversible. The opponent can later seek another master or competent Chinese trained doctor to eliminate his injury and regain his normal function.

                              Nevertheless, when my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, taught me chin-na, he asked me to apply wronging joints very carefully, or not at all, because if an opponent moves when a chin-na expert applies wronging joints, bits of bones at the joints may be broken off, and it will be difficult to repair the tiny fractures. By comparison, a fracture at the main bone can be repaired more easily.

                              The mastery of chin-na becomes visible when it is obvious the chin-na expert has accomplished his objective, i.e. the opponent cannot fight further but his injury can be relieved later.

                              Among the three methods of subduing an opponent, namely separating tendons, wronging joints, and gripping vital points, the most frequently used is gripping vital points. It is similar to dim mark, except that in dim mark an exponent strikes a vital point, whereas in chin-na he grips one or more vital points.

                              Technically, chin-na is more advanced than dim mark. To apply a dim mark successfully, which is a strike, only one movement is needed, whereas in chin-na four movements are needed. In a kick two movements are needed, and in a felling attack three movements.

                              You need to make only one movement in a strike. To apply a kick, you need to balance yourself, then kick. To fell an onopponent, you need to cover an opponent, secure a leverage advantage, then apply a felling technique. To apply chin-na, you need to move in, cover an opponentpo hold him, then grip his vital point

                              In the coming Chin-Na Course, we shall learn how to make four movements effectively before an opponent can make one. Tactics and strategies will also be used. Chin-na is not only a compassionate way of fighting, it also requires high-level skills.

                              <End>
                              Dear Sigung,

                              thank you very much for your enlightening answer!

                              With kind regards,
                              Anton.
                              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                              Anton Schmick
                              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                              shaolinwahnamchina.com
                              http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                              http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                              http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                              Comment

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