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10 Questions on Shaolin Chin-Na

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  • #16
    Here comes the next answer to the question no. two

    Question 2

    Could you please elaborate on the various levels of Chin-na, e.g. the physical, energy and mind levels? How and when can we use these and the benefits from training Chin-na in our everyday lives?

    Finally, how long would a typical Shaolin Wahnam student need to train this art until he or she can confidently and safely use Chin-na in sparring with practitioners from other martial arts? How about in sparring with other Shaolin Wahnam students?



    Most people think of only one level of chin-na, though it usually consists of two levels, namely physical and energy, just as they think of only one level of dim mark, but it actually consists of the physical level and the energy level.

    In other words, when people talk about chin-na and dim mark, they refer to only chin-na and dim mark in general, without differentiating into the physical, energy and mind levels.. When chin-ma masters and dim mark masters apply chin-na or dim mark, they just apply chin-na and dim mark, without differentiating the three levels.

    When untrained people apply chin-na and dim mark techniques on opponents, presuming that their techniques are correct, they do so at the physical level. The damage is minimal. When chin-na experts and dim mark experts apply chin-na and dim mark techniques on opponents, because of their training, they do so at the physical and the energy levels, although they do not consciously think of these two levels. The damage is substantial.

    I discovered the three levels of chin-na and dim mark accidentally. As I applied chin-na techniques on some people, I used my mind, and it worked! (As this answer will be in public, I shall not go into details.) I also tried the mind level with dim mark, and it worked too.

    The mind level greatly increases the effects of chin-na and dim mark. I believed masters in the past also employed the mind level, but they might not be aware of it. The three levels – physical, energy and mind – will be taught at the Chin-Na Course in China.

    When we apply chin-na techniques, we do not normally think of the three levels. There are three categories of attack in chin-na, namely separating tendons, wronging joints and gripping energy points. For the first two categories of attack, which are separating tendons and wronging joints, for practitioners trained in tiger claw, eagle claw or dragon claw, severe damage can be caused even at the physical level. The energy level and the mind level will add to the damage.

    (Part 2 follows)
    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

    Anton Schmick
    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord


    • #17
      here comes the second part of Sigung´s answer:

      (Continued from Part 1)

      The most frequently used category of attack in chin-na is the third, which is gripping energy points. The nature of the attack is such that it involves the energy level even if practitioners are not trained in internal arts and use only the physical level. It is because the practitioners physically grip energy points, which will cause energy blockage. It is the blockage of energy flow that results in the disability of opponents to continue fighting.

      Nevertheless, if practitioners are trained in internal arts, and apply the energy level and the mind level, the damage is much increased. On the other hand, they can also regulate the amount of force, energy flow and mind power to minimize the injury on their opponents.

      How and when a chin-na practitioner applies his chin-na techniques on opponents involve skills, and not just knowledge, although knowledge will enhance the skills as well as shorten the time to acquire them. In other words, even if some people have the knowledge of how and when to apply chin-na techniques at the physical, energy and mind levels, they will be unable to do so if they do not have the necessary skills. These skills will be taught at the coming Chin-Na Course.

      For most other people, the benefit of training chin-na is compassionate fighting, which will also make them compassionate in daily life. For those who attend the coming Chin-Na Course, because they will learn the skills associated with the energy level and the mind level, they will have better results in whatever they do. This is indeed fantastic.

      If a typical Shaolin Wahnam student attending the Chin-Na Course trains everyday for three months, he will be able to use chin-na in sparring confidently, safely and effectively against opponents of his level. Other people may not like to hear this, but three months for our typical Shaolin Wahnam students are like three years for other students.

      It is because we are incredibly cost-effective. Our students attending the Chin-Na Course are taught the necessary techniques, skills and philosophy in just a few days, whereas other students may take years to scavenger them.

      For example, our students will be taught to trick opponents to make certain moves so that they can apply their selected chin-na sequence on them. If their opponents escape the chin-na techniques the first time, which is unlikely, they will apply the same chin-na techniques on their opponents the second time before their opponents know what is happening. If the opponents escape again, the same techniques will be applied the third time.

      From my own sparring and fighting experience, the first times using chin-na techniques were successful. The second times and the third times were for preparation; they were not needed in actual sparring or fighting.

      Even other Shaolin Wahnam students of similar kungfu levels who have not attended the Chin-Na Course, may not escape the chin-na techniques in sparring, especially if these techniques are applied a second time or a third time. It is not just the chin-na techniques but also the tactics and the strategies.

      Engage and maintain joyful practice!

      May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

      Anton Schmick
      Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord


      • #18
        Next Answer!!

        Question 3

        Would Shaolin Chin-na be suitable for handling multiple opponents?

        If so, which sequences would be most suitable? And how would the tactics and strategies be different from Choy Lee Fut, an art known for fighting multiple opponents?



        Would Shaolin chin-na be suitable for handling multiple opponents? The answer is yes and no, depending on various factors.

        If the exponent is highly skillful, chin-na is effective for handling multiple opponents. If he is not skillful, chin-na techniques are not suitable in multiple-opponent fighting.

        Chin-na requires high-level skills. A chin-na master has to make four moves before his opponents can make one. However, a skillful master can do so readily, and the required factor is not just speed.

        If a chin-na master wishes to show compassion in his fighting against multiple opponents, he can apply a suitable chin-na technique on an opponent and use him as a shield against other opponents so that they cannot attack him. If he wants to escape from multiple opponents, or hurt them seriously, without worrying about being compassionate, using strikes instead of chin-na is more effective. A less skillful exponent would not have such choices, and using chin-na would not be suitable for handling multiple opponents.

        Any one of the 72 chin-na sequences is suitable, though some sequences may be more appropriate for certain situations. For example., if a nearly opponent kicks at a chin-ma master, the master can exploit his kick and apply the sequence “White Ape Ascends Tree”. However, if the master does not know this sequence, or does not want to use this sequence, he can use any other sequence he likes.

        The tactics and strategies of chin-na are different from those of Choy-Li-Fatt, which is well known for fighting multiple opponents. A chin-na master is highly skillful, and he usually fights against opponents who are less skillful. He has control over his opponents and therefore he can afford to fight compassionately. If an opponent is more skillful than him, he strategy would be different, and his strategy is to escape without being injured.

        The strategy is the same whether he fights against one opponent or many opponents. This strategy is not suitable for a practitioner who is not skillful.

        The strategy of a Choy-Li-Fatt master is different. The strategy is to injure his opponents seriously or to escape unhurt if he is able to defeat them. The nature of Choy-Li-Fatt techniques is such that a Choy-Li-Fatt practitioner has to be destructive. There are not many techniques in Choy-Li-Fatt to enable a practitioner to be compassionate, unlike in chin-na.

        This does not mean that a Choy-Li-Fatt master cannot be compassionate in his fighting. If he wants to be compassionate, he avoids hitting his opponents, i.e. he stops short of target when applying his Choy-Li-Fatt techniques. If he does not control his strikes and allows the strikes to hit his opponents, they can be seriously injured. It defeats the purpose of Choy-Li-Fatt if its techniques do not injure opponents seriously.

        The tactics of chin-na are to tempt opponents move in certain ways that it is easy for the chin-na master to apply chin-na techniques on them. For example, the master may purposely leaves an opening for his opponents to strike or kick, so that he can apply chin-na techniques on the striking arms or kicking legs.

        The tactics of Choy-Li-Fatt are different. A Choy-Li-Fatt exponent has no time to “play” with his opponents. When opponents strike and kick, he hits their arms and legs. If they are hesitant or retreat, he hits their body. His arms are like two pieces of iron rods.

        If the Choy-Li-Fatt exponent is confident of defeating his opponents, he strikes them down decisively, like breaking their arms and legs or causing them serious internal injury. If he finds his opponents overwhelming, he opens a way with his arms like iron rods, and escapes.

        Engage and maintain joyful practice!

        May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

        Anton Schmick
        Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord


        • #19
          next wonderful answer to a intriguing question:

          Question 4

          Your good self have stated that in the hands of someone with adequate internal force and "shen", a Dim-Mak strike will still be effective even if the vital point is not dotted accurately. Is this also true of a Chin-Na grip-hold?

          Assuming all combat efficiency factors (technique , skills, internal force, shen, etc) are equal in two warriors A & B who apply chin-na against an average blackbelter, except B does not have detailed knowledge of physical anatomy (eg joints, tendon-muscles positions-attachments) and energy anatomy (eg vital point positions, point & meridian correlation to organs) , how would both A & B compare to each other in chin-na combat application success in approximate percentages?

          Dr Damian Kissey


          Yes, when a master with much internal force and shen, or mind power, applies a chin-na grip on an opponent, even if the master misses the respective energy points, the chin-na grip is effective. An analogy is that when an able-bodied adult, who may not know chin-na, grips a small child, the grip will be effective. Ignoring the difference in age but by raising the level of force, it is similar to a master and an ordinary opponent.

          If the master grips on respective energy points, the same grip will produce more serious result. A master trained in chin-na will know the energy points.

          Presuming all other factors being equal, except that one knows energy network and the other does not, the knowledgeable exponent will cause more serious damage and have better control..

          If an opponent tries to free himself from the grip, he may succeed with the unknowledgeable exponent. But with knowledgeable exponent, the more the opponent struggles, the deeper will be the grip even without the exponent using extra force. In other words, the grip is such that the struggling movements will make the grip deeper.

          In some courses, for example, I demonstrated that if an opponent tried to pull himself away from a properly applied chin-na grip,. like on the throat or the wrist, the pulling movement may tear away the relevant parts of the opponent’s body. The opponent had to reach for the exponent’s fingers to release the grip, or to use suitable counter techniques.

          The success of a knowledgeable exponent compared to an unknowledgeable exponent in chin-na application with regard to knowing energy network is 6:4. But more important than knowing energy network in chin-na application, is the use of tactics and strategies. The success in appropriate percentage between a chin-na master who knows tactics and strategies as well as energy network compared to an unknowledgeable exponent is 8:2.

          In my opinion, a black=belt practitioner has no chance to escape the chin-na techniques of a master. Even students who have successfully learnt the tactics and strategies as well as the energy network of chin-na in the coming Chin-Na Course in China, will have more than 80% change of applying their chin-na techniques on black-belt opponents if their combat efficiency level is similar.

          Engage and maintain joyful practice!

          May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

          Anton Schmick
          Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord


          • #20
            Next answer

            Question 5

            Can Sifu please elaborate on the three points of time in countering a chin-na attack that are incorporated in each of the 72 chin-na sequences?

            Also, is the point of time when the grip/hold is already applied usually too late for countering, unless the responder has at least as much internal force (for protection) as the initiator?

            Sifu Leonard Lackinger


            It may be helpful to make a difference between countering and defending. In defending, we just defend against an attack without countering. In countering, we counter-attack an opponent with or without defending.

            Let us take a simple example of “Black Tiger Steals Heart” as an attack, and “Single Tiger Emerges from Cave” as a defence as well as a counter.

            The three points of time in defending and in countering any attack are when the attack is at an initial stage, at an intermediate stage, and at a final stage.

            As soon as an opponent initiates his attack, we ward it off using “Single Tiger Emerges from Cave”. This defence is at the initial stage. Or we may let the attack proceed a short time before we ward it off. This defence is at the intermediate stage. We may also let the attack completes it course, and then ward it off. This defence is at the final stage.

            Please note that the attack cannot reach us even when we allow it to continue to its end because we have sunk back to a False-Leg Stance as we make our concluding defence.

            We may also use “Single Tiger Emerges from Cave” as a counter instead of just a defence. As we ward off the attack, we simultaneously or immediately grip the opponent’s energy points. We can counter at the initial stage, intermediate stage or final stage.

            We can grip the opponent’s energy points at any place on his attacking arm, but it will be effective to grip at his upper arm at the initial stage, his elbow at the intermediate stage, and at his wrist at the final stage.

            Let us now take “Single Tiger Emerges from Cave” as a chin-na attack. If an opponent uses this chin-na technique on us, irrespective of whether it is a counter-attack against our initial punch or an independent attack by itself, we can counter at three points of time.

            As soon as an opponent reaches out his hand to grip us, we strike his hand using a hanging fist, like “Reverse Hanging of Golden Lotus”. This is an initial counter.

            Or we may let his attack proceed for a short time, then grip his elbow from below, using “White Tiger Presents Claws”. This is an intermediate counter.

            We may move back to a False-Leg Stance and allow the attack to conclude, then we grip his fingers and bend them, using “Jade Girl Plucks Flower”.

            Kungfu terms are used provisionally for convenience. They are not definitive like scientific terms. Hence, we may interpret the three points of time in countering in another way.

            We shall begin the interpretation of the opponent’s attack, like “Single Tiger Emerges from Cave”, when it is about to grip our upper arm, elbow, wrist or any part of our body. In this case, the initial stage is when the attack is about to reach us, the intermediate stage is when it makes contact, and the final stage is when the grip is applied. This is probably the interpretation you mean.

            To simply examples, let us presume that an opponent uses his right tiger claw to grip our right wrist. At the initial stage, we can use a circular hand to escape or to counter-grip his tiger claw. We can also use the circular hand to escape or counter-grip at the initial stage.

            At the final stage, if we are very powerful or the opponent is just beginning to apply his grip, we can still use the circular hand. But if we are not powerful enough, or his grip has deepened into our wrist, the circular hand technique will not be suitable. It may result in more damage to our wrist.

            But we can still counter it. Use your left thumb to press on the “tiger-mouth” of his grip. The “tiger-mouth” is located at a small triangular piece at the base between the thumb and the index finger. Pressing at his “tiger-mouth” will cause his some pain. If it is not feasible to press on his “tiger-mouth”, kick at his shin with your toes if you are wearing shoes, or kick at his lower leg with your foot, or pretend to jab into his eyes. Immediately grip any of his fingers and bend it backward. This will cause him to release his tiger-claw grip.

            Even at the final stage, when the grip is already applied, and when the responder is not as powerful as the initiator, the responder can still counter – if he knows how. This is one of the beauties of Shaolin Kungfu. There are no attacks that cannot be overcome!

            If an opponent has twisted your arm to your back, for example, you can counter with “Dong Pin Draws Sword”. If he has gripped your leg, you can counter with “Fierce Tiger Springs Claws”. If he has gripped your head to tear it off, you can counter with “Big Boss Removes Helmet”.

            Engage and maintain joyful practice!

            May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

            Anton Schmick
            Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



            • #21
              Question No. 6

              Question 6

              I've always been curious about the role of qin na in Baguazhang. My personal experience practicing Baguazhang and other martial arts has impressed upon me the immense usefulness of qin na, despite some translations of the Methods of Baguazhang deriding it, saying things such as:

              Baguazhang does not emphasize joint-locking or grabbing,
              My skill is not superior if I grab a person.
              Grabbing is not appropriate to deal with multiple opponents,
              It is best to employ a direct attack and directly withdraw.

              I am curious to know how Sifu came to choose the various qin na techniques for our Swimming Dragon set and, if Sifu is also willing to share, if there are any skills and force training methods that Sifu feels would most benefit the qin na skills of a practitioner of our Baguazhang, or other styles that may or may not be particularly well known for qin na.

              Fred Chu


              Baguazhang is well known for its footwork, like getting to the back of an opponent to attack him. It is not noted for chin-na. It is also not known for its felling technique, because while footwork is important in felling, it is different from that in Baguazhang. More than 90% of Baguazhang attack deals with strikes, primarily with the palm.

              Nevertheless, in my opinion, if you use chin-na effectively, it will enhance your specialization of Baguazhang. You should also take note that the nature of Baguazhang techniques are not particularly favorable for chin-na, but if you can add chin-na into your Baguazhang, you can surprise many opponents in combat.

              Before answering your fundamental question as to how I chose chin-na techniques in the Swimming Dragon Baguazhang Set, I would like to comment on the statements made by some Baguazhang practitioners deriding chin-na as mentioned by you.

              “Baguazhang does not emphasize joint-locking or grabbing.”

              It may be a matter of translation, but chin-na is not just joint-locking and grabbing. If you lock an opponent’s joint, or grab him, you yourself are also immobilized during combat. When you let go of the lock or grab, your opponent can continue to fight you. But if you release your chin-na technique, he cannot fight further because your chin-na would have disabled him from further fighting.

              “My skill is not superior if I grab a person.”

              That may be true of most Baguazhang practitioners because Baguazhang is not made for chin-na. But if you are already good at Baguazhang and add chin-na to it, without distracting from its combat efficiency, you will be more combat efficient.

              As an analogy, most Western trained doctors would find their treatment of patients compromised if they try to treat their patients according to traditional Chinese medicine, which is very different from the way they have been trained in Western medicine. But if you are well trained in chi kung healing, which is part of traditional Chinese medicine, and apply it without affecting your Western medical training, you will be more efficient in treating your patients.

              Not many Western trained doctors have a chance to learn chi kung healing well. Similarly not many Baguazhang practitioners have a chance to learn chin-na well.

              (Part 2 follows)
              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

              Anton Schmick
              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



              • #22
                Second part here we go

                Continued from Part 1)

                “Grabbing is not appropriate to deal with multiple opponents.”

                This statement is only true for those who are not well trained in combat application in general and in chin-na in particular. And most martial artists are poorly trained in combat application and in chin-na. This is evident from the facts that many martial artists accept being punched and kicked for granted during sparring, and that chin-na is rarely taught. But if you are well trained in combat application and in chin-na, you can use chin-na to effectively deal with multiple opponents.

                “It is best to employ a direct attack and directly withdraw.”

                This statement is true for some times, but not true for other times. If your opponents are highly skillful, it may not be good to use direct attack or withdraw directly. It is better to use tactics and strategies to trick them to fight the way you want, and attack them when situations are favorable. When you have applied chin-na techniques on them, it is unwise to withdraw directly. It is better to deepen your chin-na techniques on them until they concede defeat.

                Moreover, you can use chin-na to attack directly and withdraw directly if the combat situation warrants it. In fact, many chin-na students who do not have the opportunities to learn tactics and strategies as well as combat philosophy, often attack and withdraw directly. In the coming Chin-Na Course, participants will have the opportunity to learn tactics, strategies and combat philosophy.

                My choice of chin-na techniques for our Swimming Dragon Baguazhang Set was made unconsciously. I did not consciously think of combat principles when choosing them for the set. But this does not mean that I chose them haphazardly. My choice, though unconscious at the time, was based on my understanding of kungfu philosophy and my experience of sparring and fighting. I felt that the chin-na techniques as well as all other techniques were the best for their particular combat situations.

                There are not many chin-na techniques in the Swimming Dragon Baguazhang Set. One chin-na technique is “Smooth Hand Lead Away” in Sequence 2, which uses one hand to hold and grip an opponent’s horizontal sweep

                Another is “Leisurely Grab Goat”, which is found in Sequence 3, and is similar to “Old Eagle Catches Snake” in Shaolin Kungfu and Taijiquan. This pattern is also found in other sequences of the Swimming Dragon Baguzhang Set. Here two hands are used to hold and grip an opponent’s striking arm.

                As chin-na is not important in Baguazhang, there are no special force training techniques or methods to train chin-na skills. The usual methods to develop internal force in Baguazhang are stance training, especially the pattern “Green Dragon Tests Claw”, and the eight mother palms, like what we did during the Baguazhang course at the UK Summer Camp many years ago. When practitioners have developed substantial internal force in Baguazhang, they will be forceful in chin-na techniques as well as all other techniques.

                As there are many force training methods in our school, any relevant methods will do. But “Fierce Tiger Cleanses Claws”, which I shall teach at the coming Chin-Na Course, is particularly effective.

                When our students have developed substantial internal force with any of our force training methods, like the consolidate method of Triple Stretch, or the flow method of Taijiquan, they can apply their internal force to chin-na techniques or any other techniques effectively. Indeed, our students with internal force may be more forceful in chin-na than chin-na students who practice jabbing their hands into beans or gripping Y-shaped branches.

                More importantly, besides effective chin-na application, internal force contributes to good health, vitality and longevity, whereas jabbing into beans and gripping Y-shaped branches only contribute to chin-na efficiency.

                Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                Anton Schmick
                Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



                • #23
                  Thank you very much for the enlightening response, Sifu!
                  I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.


                  • #24
                    Next one

                    Question 7

                    To expand on Sipak Damian's question, would you be willing to share with us some of the best anatomical locations for separating tendons, gripping vital points, and wronging joints, and how to best go about accomplishing each of these three aspects of chin na gripping in application?



                    The frequently used positions for separating tendons in chin-na are

                    1. the throat
                    2. the collar bones in front of the body
                    3. the collar bones at the back of the body
                    4. the upper arms
                    5. the sides of the waist
                    6. the back of the leg above the knees
                    7. the calve muscles

                    For gripping energy points, the frequently used points are

                    1. at the shoulders near the armpits
                    2. at the armpits
                    3. at the collar bones at the back
                    4. at the elbows
                    5. at the wrists
                    6. at the sides of the ribs
                    7. at the knees
                    8. at the shins
                    9. at the ankles
                    10. at the bottom of the feet

                    For wrong points, the frequently used locations are

                    1. at the neck
                    2. at the shoulders
                    3. at the elbows
                    4. at the fingers
                    5. at the knees
                    6. at the angles

                    To apply these chin-na techniques successfully, an exponent should use tactics and strategies to trick opponents to fight in a way suitable for the technique application. He should also have sufficient force in the training of the tiger claw, eagle claw or dragon claw.

                    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                    Anton Schmick
                    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



                    • #25
                      Dear Sitaigung,

                      thank you very much for answering our questions in such great detail! I am looking forward to this wonderful course!

                      Dear Sifu,

                      thank you very much for posting these incredible answers and your great work in organizing our trip to China! I am very grateful

                      Kindest regards from Hamburg,
                      May all beings be happy

                      Thank you.


                      • #26
                        Next wonderful answer is up! It looks, like we are getting another classic Q&A section

                        Question 8

                        As Chin-Na is one of the 3 ultimates in Shaolin Kungfu, the other 2 being Dim Mak and Nei Kung, could you elaborate on the differences between the 3 ultimates?

                        More specifically, how are the effects, applications and philosophy different between Chin-Na and Dim-Mak?

                        Would there be a reason why an exponent would use Chin-Na over Dim-Mak in certain situations, or vice-versa?



                        Chin-na is disabling opponents by gripping their energy points, wrong their tendons or dislocating their joints. Of the three ways of attack in chin-na, gripping energy points is most frequently used.

                        Dim mark is dotting energy points to stop energy flow along a certain meridian. Both chin-na and dim mark are combat ending. When energy points are gripped in chin-na, or dotted in dim mark, energy stops flowing along that meridian or meridians or those parts of the opponents’ body, resulting in the opponents being unable to continue fighting.

                        The other two main ways of subduing opponents in chin-na are separating tendons and dislocating joints. When tendons are torn, they fail to move muscles, and when joints are dislocated, the respective limbs are disabled. Both result in opponents not being able to continue fighting.

                        The injury of both chin-na and dim mark, however, is reversible. The victims can consult competent masters or Chinese trained doctors to restore their energy flow, repair their tendons and fix their joints.

                        There are countless ways of attack, but these countless ways can be classified into four categories, namely striking, kicking, felling and chin-na. Chin-na, therefore, is a category by itself. dim mark is one of a sub-category of striking. The main sub-category of striking is hitting with the hand. Strikes can also be executed with the shoulders, elbows, head, hips, buttock, and fingers as in the case of dim mark.

                        Both chin-na and dim mark use the fingers, but chin-na employs gripping whereas dim mark employs dotting. Chin-na is more physical, and dim mark is energetic. It does not need much muscular strength of hard internal force in dim mark. The dotting is usually gentle, whereas much muscular strength or hard internal force is used in chin-na, thought chin-na masters of a high level may use energy or mind instead of physical force in chin-na.

                        In this context, nei kung, which means internal art, refers to internal cultivation, as opposed to external movements, or wai kung, especially in combat. Hence, although chin-na and dim mark are highly internal, as it is the internal energy flow of the exponents that distort the energy network of the opponents, they are considered wai kung in this context.

                        As a rough guide, whatever that is meant for combat and involves movement, is considered wai kung, or external art. Whatever that is meant for internal force and involves health, is considered nei kung. Some examples of nei kung in this context are Sinew Metamorphosis, Abdominal Breathing, and Zen meditation.

                        While chin-na and dim mark are considered nei kung here, as they are meant for combat and involve movement, they are considered nei kung in another context because its training is through essence, energy and mind.

                        It should be noted that kungfu and chi kung terms are meant for convenience, and are not definitive like scientific terms.

                        Hence, the external arts, which in this case are chin-na and dim mark, involve external movements are for combat, whereas the internal arts, like Sinew Metamorphosis, Abdominal Breathing and Zen meditation, involve cultivation of essence, energy and mind, and are for health.

                        The effects of chin-na and dim mark are similar. Both involve stopping of energy flow, which distort the energy network of opponents, resulting in their becoming sick and inability to continue fighting. If the effects are not taken care of, the damage can be very serious. But in kungfu culture in the past, victims were aware of the danger of such injury, and they would seek treatment from other masters or competent therapists.

                        (Part 2 follows)
                        Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                        May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                        Anton Schmick
                        Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



                        • #27
                          second part of the wonderful answer

                          (Continued from Part 1)

                          Generally, the effects of dim mark are more serious than those of chin-na. Unless the energy blockage is released, victims of dim mark may die, but victims of chin-na suffer from permanent disability. Dim mark injuries usually concern the body, whereas chin-na injuries usually concern the limbs.

                          In both chin-na and dim mark, application is on energy points. In chin-na the injury is due to pressure applied on energy points, often by muscular strength though internal force is used by high-level masters, which stops the energy flow at those points. Hence, the force applied in chin-na is hard.

                          In dim mark the injury is due to energy flowing from the exponent to the opponent to distort the latter’s energy network. The force applied in dim mark is soft. In some cases the dotting may stop the opponent’s energy flow at the relevant energy points.

                          The philosophy of chin-na and the philosophy of dim mark are similar. Both chin-na and dim mark stop the natural energy flow of opponents causing them to lose their combat ability, or to be seriously sick if the energy blockage is not released. Both philosophies are based on compassion, enabling the victims to seek remedy later on. Calling dim mark the touch of death, which is often described as such, is incorrect. It is true that the victims may die if they do not seek treatment, but the concept behind its application is born of compassion, which is to disable opponents from further fighting but enable them to recover fully later on, instead of breaking their skulls or damaging their internal organs to stop further combat.

                          The ways chin-na and dim mark are applied, are quite different. The application of chin-na is gripping, whereas that of dim mark is dotting. One is hard, the other is soft. Chin-na is usually applied on limbs, whereas dim mark on the body.

                          Both chin-na and dim mark are very advanced arts. Not many people, including masters, have a chance to learn either one. Indeed, these arts are considered lost. It is incredible that both these arts are available in our school.

                          The main reason why an exponent would use chin-na over dim mark, or vice versa, is that he is trained in only one of these two arts, if he is very, very lucky besides having put in a lot of dedicated practice. However, if a rare master knows both arts, his choice of using one over the other is often due to circumstances and not preference.

                          If the combat circumstance is such that chin-na is favorable, he would use chin-na, if dim mark is favorable, he would use dim mark. It is the same as other combat techniques. If the circumstance is favorable for him to use a palm strike, he would use a palm strike. If the circumstance is favorable for him to use a felling technique, he would use a felling technique. A master who has the very rare opportunity and ability to be trained in both chin-na and dim mark will be spontaneous and versatile. He does not have to be limited to some preferred techniques, which may apply to lesser practitioners.

                          I am very fortunate to be trained in both chin-na and dim mark. Looking over my sparring and fighting experience, I used chin-na more often than dim mark. In fact, I had not used dim mark at all in sparring or fighting, except when during demonstration I felt my energy accidentally penetrated into students which was similar to dim mark. I asked the students to perform “Lifting the Sky” or similar exercises to generate an energy flow to clear away any possible injury.

                          I used chin-na more often because during the time I had a lot of sparring with other martial artists, I was trained in chin-na. I also had better control at chin-na, subduing opponents but not hurting them. Dim mark injury had to be more serious before opponents conceded defeat.

                          Even then, I did not have to use chin-na often when compared to striking (apart from dim mark), kicking and felling. I reserved chin-na for difficult opponents, or when the circumstances arose, but I usually could defeat opponents using simpler techniques.

                          Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                          May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                          Anton Schmick
                          Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



                          • #28
                            Next answer is up!
                            Enjoy the sunday read

                            Question 9

                            A key aspect of our Dim Mark training was first to learn how to remedy any ill effects of the applied skill/technique. As manipulation of energy is included in Chin Na, how important is knowledge of remedy to Chin Na training? Does such knowledge also extend to the more physical damage that can be caused, e.g. dit da?

                            As a follow up, if I may, can Chin Na be used for healing?

                            Sifu Andrew Barnett


                            A good training of dim mark will include remedying the injury caused. This is because dim mark injury is usually serious, sometimes causing death and often causing permanent disability if left unattended.

                            In our Dragon Strength course where dim mark was taught, our remedial methods by taking out the injury with our hands, like a crane beak, followed by energy flow, are every effective. Because the remedy was applied immediately, all “victims” recovered within half an hour.

                            It would take a longer time for most other people. It would also take a longer time for the victims to seek proper treatment. The usual remedies are herbal medicine, die da (pronounced like “thiet da”) or kungfu medicine, an-mo or massage therapy, and tui na which is also massage therapy. Such remedies may take about three months.

                            All our Shaolin Wahnam family members, including those who may not have learned chin-na or dim mark, are indeed very lucky – probably luckier than they realize. We have energy flow. Not only it can overcome chin-na and dim mark injuries speedier, as well as all other forms of illness, more importantly it gives us good health, vitality and longevity.

                            Remedy work is normally not included in chin-na training. This is because while chin-na will also disable opponents form further combat, chin-na injuries are usually not as serious as those of dim mark. But high-level chin-na masters can inflict more serious injury than dim mark, and in such cases these masters usually know remedial work.

                            Remedial work in chin-na and dim mark is limited to chin-na and dim mark injuries. A knowledge of such remedial work enables him to treat chin-na and dim mark injuries competently but does not extend to treatment of other injuries, including those caused by physical damage, like those injuries in “die da” or kungfu medicine.

                            A kungfu medicine doctor is a professional. He is comprehensively trained in traditional Chinese medicine in general, and in injuries caused by falling or being hit in particular. A chin-na or dim mark master who knows remedial work on chin-na or dim mark injuries is not comprehensively trained in traditional Chinese medicine; he only knows treatment of chin-na or dim mark injuries caused by him.

                            However, many kungfu medicine practitioners today are not comprehensively trained in traditional Chinese medicine, but some of them are very good at their work, better in treating injuries than comprehensively trained Chinese doctors, who generally treat illness, not injury.

                            In Chinese medical philosophy, a distinction is made between illness and injury. Treating an injury as an illness, or vice versa, may be detrimental. In the same way, although chin-na or dim mark masters with knowledge and practice of remedial work may not be as widely trained in treatment of injuries as “die da” practitioners, the masters’ treatment of chin-na or dim mark injuries may be better than that of “die da” practitioners.

                            Chin-na is not used for healing. But if all other things were equal, a chin-na practitioner who has knowledge and practice of remedial work and if he also has studied healing, will be a better healer than other healers. He has at least some knowledge of energy network, and forceful hands to manipulate in his healing if necessary. However, he must make sure that if he uses his hands for manipulation work in healing, he must not use them as if he were applying chin-na techniques.

                            Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                            May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                            Anton Schmick
                            Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord



                            • #29
                              Fantastic and insightful answers. Many thanks, Sifu and also Anton for making this possible. It is such a shame that I will not be able to attend this incredible course
                              Sifu Andrew Barnett
                              Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland -

                              Flowing Health GmbH (Facebook:
                              Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
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                              Chi Kung Courses: May 2019 in Landquart CH
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                                Fantastic and insightful answers. Many thanks, Sifu and also Anton for making this possible. It is such a shame that I will not be able to attend this incredible course
                                Indeed! Many thanks /O
                                Sifu Andy Cusick

                                Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                                Shaolin Qigong


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                                - ancient wisdom