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  • 10 Questions on 18 Lohan Fist

    Dear Family,

    Sigung has kindly offered to answer 10 Questions on the upcoming 18 Lohan Fist course in Frankfurt.

    It is the first time that 18 Lohan Fist is being taught in our school.

    It is sayed this Lohan Kung Fu is the root of all later developed Shaolin Styles. Because of this it came into my mind to ask Sifu to teach it here in Frankfurt. To get a climps of an idea and feeling where and how everything was starting with the famous Shaolin Kung Fu. After asking Sifu for it his answer was following:" Kai, you always asking for the best this is my last Lohan knowledge after Lohan Hands and Lohan Arts now Lohan fist and I´m happy you asking for".
    Sifu will show soon the "18 Lohan fist" set on his webside to learn it before the course will start. So we can concentrate on the unvisible secrets of it.

    I would like to use the opportunity and ask the first question.

    Dear Sigung,

    Could you please tell us about the philosophy, force training, tactics and benefits of the 18 Lohan Fist?

    With kindest regards,
    Anton
    Engage and maintain joyful practice!

    May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

    Anton Schmick
    Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

    shaolinwahnamchina.com
    http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
    http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
    http://kungfu-luebeck.de


  • #2
    Thank you :-)

    Thank you Anton Sifu for starting this amazing Thread. It is a big opportunity for me to learn more about the 18 Lohan Fist as I don't know anything about this art.

    I want to thank Sifu for his incredible generosity, dedication and patience. This year has been very meaningful for me and I want to thank Sifu from the bottom of my heart.

    Dear Sifu,

    May you share with us what is so special about the 18 Lohan Fist?

    How can the 18 Lohan Fist enrich my Taijiquan practice?

    What would the strengths and weaknesses of the 18 Lohan Fist be?


    With Love, Care and Shaolin Salute,

    Santiago

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks brother for mediating this question series!

      Dear Sifu,
      • Can you tell us the story of the evolution of the 18 Lohan Fist?
      • What are its advantages compared to other martial arts?


      Many thanks,
      Sifu Andy Cusick

      Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
      Shaolin Qigong

      sigpic

      Connect:
      Twitter Facebook LinkedIn

      "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
      - ancient wisdom

      Comment


      • #4
        Dear Sigung,

        Thank you for yet another q&a! I had a few questions about Lohanquan.

        1) Lohanquan is considered the "base" for many kung fu systems, like Eagle Claw, Praying Mantis, and Baguazhang. What is it about Lohanquan that made it so popular and useful for other systems to "build" upon?

        2) For what types of fighting was Lohanquan developed to handle, eg mass fighting, one versus many, one versus one, protecting someone as a bodyguard, etc.?

        3) Is Lohanquan particularly well known for certain weapons? If so, how do Lohanquan and those weapons enhance and complement one another?

        Sincerely and with respect,
        -Fred Chu
        I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

        Comment


        • #5
          Dear Anton Sisook,

          Thank you for facilitating another wonderful thread.


          Dear Sigung,

          Thank you for giving this wonderful opportunity to gain insight into this art and benefit from your knowledge.

          Can you please tell us about any great past masters who fought using 18 Lohan Fist and any special techniques and strategies they may have used?



          Best wishes,
          Dominic.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear Sifu, I find that when I tell people I practise Shaolin Kungfu they say "What type?"
            Because the closest kungfu to ours that I saw outside of our school was Hung Gar / Hoong Ka, I used to tell them that, rather than get into a complicated discussion or try to persuade them that Shaolin itself was a style. (I later discovered that this is what Uncle Righteousness kungfu was referred to by some?)
            I then wondered if Hoong Ka was the base for most Styles, like the original Shaolin. Would it be more accurate to say that Lohan kungfu was the original Shaolin? Or are both of these incorrect and the original Shaolin kungfu is simply called shaolin kungfu, with both Lohan and Hoong Ka being derivations, Lohan coming before Hoong Ka?

            Thanks Sifu for the opportunity to ask these questions. If there are 10 more worthy questions than mine, and in this case I think there probably will be, I will be happy to read the answers to these others instead of mine which is only academic.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks to everybody for the great questions!
              There is still space for a few more!

              Here you can find the application of the Lohan Fist:



              Thank you very much Sigung for your kind answer!

              here it goes:

              Question 1

              Could you please tell us about the philosophy, force training, tactics and benefits of the 18 Lohan Fist?

              Sifu Anton


              Answer

              The Eighteen-Lohan Fist was developed from the Eighteen Lohan Hands. When Bodhidharma taught meditation at the Shaolin Temple, he found the monks weak and unhealthy. So he taught them the Eighteen Lohan Hands to strengthen them in all aspects – physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

              Gradually the Eighteen Lohan Hands evolved into the Eighteen-Lohan Fist. The Eighteen Lohan Hands were a set of chi kung exercises, whereas the Eighteen-Lohan Fist was a set of kungfu techniques. The Eighteen-Lohan Fist became the prototype of Shaolin Kungfu. In other works, various styles of Shaolin Kungfu branched our or developed from the Eighteen-Lohan Fist.

              It should be noted that both the Eighteen Lohan Hands and the Eighteen-Lohan Fist were practiced at the same time, though not necessarily by the same people. Later martial monks also evolved the Eighteen Lohan Hands into the Eighteen-Lohan Art, which was also practiced simultaneously alongside the other two Lohan arts. Because of the long history of the northern Shaolin Temple in Henan, and later the two southern Shaolin Temples at Quanzhou and on the Nine-Lotus Mountain, there were many versions of the Eighteen Lohan Hands, the Eighteen-Lohan Fist and the Eighteen-Lohan Art.

              There is some characteristic difference between the Eighteen Lohan Fist of Northern Shaolin and the Eighteen-Lohan Fist of Southern Shaolin. On the other hand, there are also common features between these two northern and southern versions, and other styles of kungfu. Both northern and southern Lohan Fist is characterized by long and wide stances with long reaching strikes usually with the fist, and sometimes with the palm. It is quite easy for the initiated to differentiate between Lohan Fist from styles like Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Eagle Calw, Praying Mantis, Wing Choon, Choy-Li-Fatt and Hoong Ka Kun gfu.

              Between Northern and Southern Lohan Fist, the northern version is characterized by agile footwork with frequent kicks, whereas the southern version by solid stances and more hand strikes. Relatively, Northern Lohan Fist focuses more on straight punches with the fist, whereas Southern Lohan Fist on sweeping strokes with the arm.

              If all other factors were equal, Lohan Fist favoures those who are big and strong. It bulldozes into smaller and weaker opponents, or softer and more gentle styles. As Lohan Fist, especially the northern version, was relatively early in its historical development, its combat philosophy is relatively simple and straight-forward, missing the sophisticated techniques and tactic of later styles, like the circular movements of Taijiquan, the evasive footwork of Baguazhang, the serving motion of the dragon style, and the decisive grip of the tiger claw. Nevertheless, with the advantage of breadth and depth in Shaolin Wahnam, we are able to enrich Lohan Fist with these features.

              The main force training approach of northern Lohan Fist is the Eighteen-Lohan Art, whereas that of southern Lohan Fist is stance training. However, as most people today practice only the external form of these arts without their essence, most Lohan Fist practitioners do not have internal force. Some of them retort to lifting weight for muscular strength to perform Lohan Fist.

              The principal tactic of Lohan Fist is pressing attack. Even without internal force but with muscular strength and advantage of size, pressing attack can be very formidable to most people. However, a skillful exponent, even when he is small in size, can intercept the pressing attack and counter strike. Some of these interception techniques are found in our basic combat sequences. Do you know them?

              Even at a physical level, i.e. without internal force and mind training, Lohan Fist training brings benefits of good health, vitality, agility and flexibility. In kungfu training, it provides a suitable background for the development of any kungfu styles, and a good understanding of kungfu philosophy and principles.

              The internal training of energy and mind raises the benefits to many higher levels. The chi flow as a result of practicing Lohan Fist may overcome pain and illness, or prevent them. Its training enhances vitality and promotes longevity, and contributes to peak performance and spiritual joys.
              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

              Anton Schmick
              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

              shaolinwahnamchina.com
              http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
              http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
              http://kungfu-luebeck.de

              Comment


              • #8
                Late but maybe my questions will be answered as well:

                Dear Sifu,

                What are the the typical differences between Northern Shaolin Kungfu styles, where Lohan Kungfu was dominent and Southern Shaolin styles?

                Could you please elaborate more whom the Venerable Chee Seen, Pak Mei and Ng Mui learnt from? Did they learn at the Northern Shaolin temple?

                Why was it that Praying Mantis Kungfu, although very popular and also very effective was no longer officially thought at the Shaolin temple after some time and replaced by Lohan Kungfu?

                Best regards,

                Roland
                "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                Website: www.enerqi.ch

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Sifu,

                  thank you very much for moderating this Q&A series for the 18 Lohan Fist!

                  Dear Sitaigung,

                  thank you very much for the opportunity to ask you questions on this interesting topic!

                  My question is the following:

                  Could you please elaborate on the relation between the 18 Lohan Fist and Tan Tui?
                  What are similarities and differences between these in terms of philosophy, form, force training, tactics and strategies?


                  Best regards,
                  Steffen
                  Our beloved Grandmaster has made it very simple for us:

                  Don‘t worry,
                  don‘t intellectualize,
                  just enjoy your practice.

                  May all beings be released from all suffering!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My question was answered as part of the response to Anton, so thank you Sifu.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Great first question!

                      & Thank you very much Sifu for the answer!

                      Best,
                      Sifu Andy Cusick

                      Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                      Shaolin Qigong

                      sigpic

                      Connect:
                      Twitter Facebook LinkedIn

                      "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                      - ancient wisdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dear Sifu,

                        When I started learning Shaolin Kung Fu, someone in our school once told me: "Tiger beats Monkey, Monkey beats Lohan and Lohan beats Tiger."

                        Could you comment on this?

                        Many thanks for your time.

                        Roeland Dijkema
                        www.shaolinwahnam.nl
                        www.shaolinholland.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Wonderful nine questions!

                          There is room for one more
                          Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                          May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                          Anton Schmick
                          Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                          shaolinwahnamchina.com
                          http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                          http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                          http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If I may hopefully, one more question

                            Dear Sifu,

                            You described in the first answer that Lohan Kung Fu lacked certain features that were developed later and is more simple and straight-forward. Could this also be an advantage at a master's level, just as it is an advantage in, for instance, Xing Yi Kung Fu and Wuzuquan?

                            Many thanks for your time!

                            Best wishes,

                            Roeland Dijkema
                            www.shaolinwahnam.nl
                            www.shaolinholland.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Full!

                              Great questions!

                              Question 2:

                              May you share with us what is so special about the 18 Lohan Fist?

                              How can the 18 Lohan Fist enrich my Taijiquan practice?

                              What would the strengths and weaknesses of the 18 Lohan Fist be?

                              Santiago


                              Answer:

                              The two facts that the Lohan Fist is the prototype of Shaolin Kungfu, and that techniques of all other martial arts can be found in Shaolin Kungfu, make the Lohan Fist very special.

                              It is worth noting two common misconceptions, that Bodhidharma, despite being honoured as the First Patriarch of Shaolin Kungfu, did not invent Shaolin Kungfu, and that kungfu, or Chinese martial arts, did not start at the Shaolin Temple. Kungfu was already practiced at a high level even before the Shaolin Temple was built. Generals like Thik Cheng (who expanded the Han Empire to the West), Lu Pu (considered the most formidable in the Three Kingdom Period) and Zhao Yun (who was undefeated in all his battles, also of the Three Kingdom Period) were before the Shaolin era.

                              Bodhidharma taught the 18 Lohan Hands at the Shaolin Temple, and retired generals at the temple evolved these chi kung exercises into the Eighteen-Lohan Fist. Various Shaolin styles developed from the Eighteen-Lohan Fist, like Taizuquan, Taijiquan, Wuzuquan, Xingyiquan, Eagle Claw and Praying Mantis from the northern Shaolin Temple, and Hoong Ka, Wing Choon, Choy-Li-Fatt, White Crane and Dragon Style from the two southern Shaolin Temples. Amongst other benefits, knowing the Eighteen-Lohan Fist provide insight to the source and development of various kungfu styles.

                              It is understandable that many other martial artists may be angry at the statement that techniques of all other martial arts can be found in Shaolin Kungfu, often at a less than perfect form. I can’t remember whether this fact was mentioned before, but I discovered (or rediscovered) and confirmed it again and again in my research and study of other martial artists before sparring with them more than 30 years ago.

                              While their techniques could be found in Shaolin Kungfu, I was shocked at their lack of perfect form, which exposed them to easy counter attacks and which I exploited. For example, Karatekas often punched high leaving their ribs exposed, Taekwondokas had poor balance after kicking, Judokas did not attempt to cover their opponents when they executed their throws, and Boxers threw their body forward in their strikes. A well-trained kungfu practitioner would never commit all these weaknesses, which gave free offers to their opponents.

                              Wrestling, was regarded as a sport, and it was well known amongst kungfu circles that without safety rules, wrestlers would be dangerously exposed. Wrestlers would be killed or serous injured in a real fight with a genuine kungfu master. Kick-Boxing and Mixed Martial Arts were unknown then, but looking at these arts today we can readily see that their exponents would be dangerously exposed if not for their safety rules.

                              When Kai taught counters against pin-downs many years ago at a special course in Sungai Petnai, I was pleasantly surprised to see that all the attacks and counters were found in Shaolin Kungfu, though most Shaolin practitioners might be unaware of the application even when they had learnt the techniques. We all have to thank Kai for opening up this whole area of attacks and counters.

                              (Part 2 follows)
                              ***************
                              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                              Anton Schmick
                              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                              shaolinwahnamchina.com
                              http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                              http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                              http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                              Comment

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