Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Secrets of Building Internal Force: 10 Questions to the Grandmaster

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Dear Barry,

    Thank you for this opportunity to ask questions.


    Sifu,

    last year at the Intensive Taijiquan course you taught that after internal force practice, such as Lifting Water or Three Circle Stance, one can choose to let chi flow freely, or first let the chi flow be quite still and then let go more, or let the chi flow be calm.
    How does this affect on building force?


    Thank you.

    Best regards,

    Nessa
    Nessa Kahila
    Shaolin Nordic Finland

    www.shaolin-nordic.com

    Comment


    • #17
      After 60 years of experience, what would you say are the most important "secrets" of building internal force

      Many people reading this won't be Martial Artists and could dismiss the idea of "building internal force" as being not for them. Could you explain:

      • what the benefits of building internal force are for someone who isn't planning or wanting to practice a martial art
      • what are the most cost-effective ways of building internal force for someone like this
      Thanks for asking these questions Sifu Barry, as both of them resonate quite strongly with me!

      I'm looking forward to read Sigung's answers to these, and all other questions.

      With best wishes
      Jacek

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Jacek,

        Well we will have to keep our fingers crossed that Sifu has the time as it came after the first 10 questions.

        Best,

        Barry
        Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
        Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
        Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
        UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #19
          And so the fun begins

          I have received a three part answer from Sifu for the first question and will begin posting tomorrow
          Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
          Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
          Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
          UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #20
            I can't wait for Sigung's responses in this thread and all the other threads!

            As a side note, I've been on this forum since 2003. Over the past decade, it's wonderful to see the discussion on this forum grow from "can you prove chi is real?" to "please explain the cyclical nature of cleansing, building and nourishing."

            Best regards,
            Stephen

            Comment


            • #21
              Hello all

              I actually had prepared a list of questions for each of the open Q&As, but it seems that I am too late for this one. Poor timing but in my defence, I have not had time to do more than glance quickly at the forum the past week.

              I was so inspired by Sifu's zest and energy in answering 5 separate threads of questions at once, that I felt I should at least make the effort to articulate some questions about these topics that I have been asked by others and others which I have been pondering over.

              Dear Sifu, if I may, I will just pose 2 more questions on internal force in this thread for you to consider if you have time.

              Question #1

              Many people I have spoken to over the years tend to dismiss ‘neigong’ or internal force. Instead, as mentioned to Sifu over dinner that day, many people expect to see superhuman abilities or some other external (and tangible) manifestation of ‘neigong’. The comment I hear most often is “Can you fly now after practising your qigong?” or words to that effect.

              The people who do not doubt are those who have witnessed the steady but gradual transformation of someone they know who had practised qigong, or those who have themselves experienced the wonders of qigong and have developed neigong on their own.

              My question is: How can and should we best showcase the wondrous effects of qigong in a relatively short time to those who have not had the opportunity to witness how qigong (and neigong) has brought health and vitality to its practitioners, such as curious seekers who have only read about internal force but do not personally know any practitioner?

              The most ideal situation would be for someone to see the transformation brought about by regular practice over time, but in today’s information-overloaded world, is there a way to get the message across in a quicker manner without resorting to “stuntman shows”?
              百德以孝为先
              Persevere in correct practice

              Comment


              • #22
                I actually have a few more questions on internal force but I think I will post them in the Legacy of Wong Fei hong thread instead
                百德以孝为先
                Persevere in correct practice

                Comment


                • #23
                  Question and Answer - 1 - Part 1

                  Question and Answer - 1 - Part 1

                  Question 1

                  Two years ago in Florida, you taught Two-Finger Shooting Zen where we first emphasized proper form, generated an energy flow, and then consolidated the energy flow into internal force.

                  You also taught Lifting Water where there was no particular instruction for allowing flow or consolidation, we simply did the exercise in a qigong state of mind. From some discussion with other Shaolin Wahnam family members, these two methods are very common in our school.

                  At the UK Summer Camp in Arundhel, you taught the Baguazhang method of force training, which involved both building force with Baguazhang stances and then letting it flow with Circle Walking.

                  Are there other such internal force training methods or styles of kung fu where the practitioner alternatively builds and then allows force to flow within the same exercise?

                  What are the advantages and disadvantages (if any?) of an exercise that builds and flows within the same exercise, versus an exercise like Two Finger Shooting Zen where first there is flow and then there is consolidation, or versus an exercise the way Lifting Water was taught where there is no particular thought towards flowing or consolidating?

                  Fred Chu


                  Answer

                  It is mind blowing to reflect that even masters have chased after internal force for many years but to no avail, yet relative beginners in our school could feel tangibly internal force after just one day! It is no wonder that many people call us liars. We have no complaint that they do not believe us; it is their loss.

                  But we can’t help feeling they are really silly, or really stubborn, or both, though that is not our business. They are silly not to find out for themselves by taking a course. They are stubborn that they are no humble enough to learn from us despite the many benefits they can get. But honestly we are glad that we do not have silly or stubborn students in our midst.

                  The amazing thing is that once you have the secrets of internal force training, theoretically and experientially, from the benefit of breath and depth available in our school, you can almost train internal force in whatever way you want and still get good results. If you didn’t choose he best technique and the best approach, you won’t get the best result, but even if your result is only 10% of the potential, say, after training for one month, your 10% result is still better than many people who get nothing after chasing for internal force for many years.

                  If you choose Two-Finger Shooting Zen as the technique for internal force training, and your procedure is first to have picture perfect form, next to generate an energy flow, and then consolidate the energy flow into internal force, you have the best approach for a good technique. Even if your practice is not excellent, with you making some mistakes here and there, but on the whole you have practiced correctly, you should have at least 60% of the potential.

                  Suppose a master (so called by the public because he has taught kungfu for many years, though he uses kick-boxing for sparring) wants to develop some internal force, but he is not humble enough to learn from us. So he reads up from some books or the internet to practice Two Finger Shooting Zen. At the most he could get only 10% of the potential benefit.

                  Bear in mind that his potential benefit is not the same as your potential benefit, because you know the secrets of using Two-Finger Shooting Zen to develop internal force, but he doesn’t, though he may know the external technique. If your potential benefit is 10,000 units of internal force, his potential at the most is only 1000. So you get 6000 units of internal force, whereas he gets only 100.

                  Suppose you reverse the procedure of your training of Two Finger Shooting Zen. You start by consolidating energy, next you let your energy flow, and finally you aim for picture-perfect form. So now you have a bad approach to a good technique, and you get only 10% of your potential, which is 1000 units of internal force, but which is still relatively a lot compared to what the master gets.
                  Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
                  Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
                  Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
                  UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Question and Answer - 1 - Part 2a

                    Question and Answer - 1 - Part 2a

                    Question 1 (original question)

                    Two years ago in Florida, you taught Two-Finger Shooting Zen where we first emphasized proper form, generated an energy flow, and then consolidated the energy flow into internal force.

                    You also taught Lifting Water where there was no particular instruction for allowing flow or consolidation, we simply did the exercise in a qigong state of mind. From some discussion with other Shaolin Wahnam family members, these two methods are very common in our school.

                    At the UK Summer Camp in Arundhel, you taught the Baguazhang method of force training, which involved both building force with Baguazhang stances and then letting it flow with Circle Walking.

                    Are there other such internal force training methods or styles of kung fu where the practitioner alternatively builds and then allows force to flow within the same exercise?

                    What are the advantages and disadvantages (if any?) of an exercise that builds and flows within the same exercise, versus an exercise like Two Finger Shooting Zen where first there is flow and then there is consolidation, or versus an exercise the way Lifting Water was taught where there is no particular thought towards flowing or consolidating?

                    Fred Chu


                    Answer (Contd.)

                    ... Now, for giggles, you choose a bad technique to develop internal force. You choose to hit a wooden dummy instead of training Two-Finger Shooting Zen. Actually hitting a wooden dummy will only develop external strength, but because you know the secrets of internal force training, you can still use this technique, though it is a bad choice.

                    First you ensure you have picture-perfect form as you hit the wooden dummy, next you generate an energy flow, and then you consolidate your internal force. In other words, your approach is excellent, and your performance is also excellent. So you attain 100% of your potential benefit. But because the technique is a bad one, your potential benefit is only 2000 units of internal force. If your approach is bad and your technique is bad, but you still train internal force because you know the secrets, you get only 10% of your potential, or 200 units of internal force, which is still double that of the master.

                    For Two-Finger Shooting Zen, we use the form-flow-force approach. But we do not use the same approach for Lifting Water because the method is different.

                    We still start with picture-perfect form. If you lean back on your stance, or you move one arm faster than the other, for example, your result will be worse, or even detrimental. But we do not actively generate a vigorous energy flow, or consolidate the energy into internal force. We let happen spontaneously because of the technique. By raising the arms up and down, we generate an energy flow. By moving the arms slowly in a chi kung state of mind, we let the energy consolidate, but not as much as in Two Finger Shooting Sen.

                    What we did with Baguazhang in the UK Summer Camp 2013, building force with Baguazhang stances and letting it flow with Circle Walking, was an excellent approach, attaining yin0yang harmony. There can be other approaches. One may just train Baguazhang stances, or just practice Circle Walking. Or he may practice Circle Walking first, followed by Baguazhang stance training.

                    We did not have sufficient time to experience to find out which approach would give us the best result. But from a philosophical perspective, what we did, i.e. Baguazhang stance training intermixed with Circle Waling, was probably the best as we could maximize the result of building and flowing with chi flow.

                    There are other internal force training methods and kungfu styles where building and flowing are incorporated in the same exercise. The proportion between building and flowing may vary. Some examples are One-Finger Shooting Zen, Punching with Stone Locks, Grasping Sparrow’s Tail, Wing Choon Siu Lin Tou and Yang Style Taijiquan.

                    In some kungfu sets, like the Triple Stretch and the Flower Set, the first part is ta-chong, or force training on stance, followed by ta-sei-moon, or performing combat sequences in four directions. First, force is built, then it is made to flow.

                    In our school, having a chi flow after building force is our hallmark. Before this building-flowing concept has been crystallized, I discovered from my own training as well as from teaching students that a chi flow after stance training greatly enhanced the result. Hence in my early years of teaching, students would have heard me saying that if they didn’t go into chi flow after stance training, they would miss more than half the benefit. Now students do not hear give this advice often because this practice has become standard procedure in our school.


                    Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
                    Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
                    Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
                    UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      In case you haven't read it, here is a thread on Jacek's experience of taking a Building Internal Force course.

                      And Sifu is teaching the Secrets of internal force at the UK Summer Camp . There are already over 40 people booked on this course so if you are thinking of booking a place now might be a good time.

                      With metta,

                      Barry
                      Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
                      Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
                      Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
                      UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi Sifu Barry

                        I actually just updated my thread to share some more benefits of the skills you taught us last month!

                        With best wishes
                        Jacek

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Question and Answer - 1 - Part 2b

                          Question and Answer - 1 - Part 2b

                          Question 1 (original question)

                          Two years ago in Florida, you taught Two-Finger Shooting Zen where we first emphasized proper form, generated an energy flow, and then consolidated the energy flow into internal force.

                          You also taught Lifting Water where there was no particular instruction for allowing flow or consolidation, we simply did the exercise in a qigong state of mind. From some discussion with other Shaolin Wahnam family members, these two methods are very common in our school.

                          At the UK Summer Camp in Arundhel, you taught the Baguazhang method of force training, which involved both building force with Baguazhang stances and then letting it flow with Circle Walking.

                          Are there other such internal force training methods or styles of kung fu where the practitioner alternatively builds and then allows force to flow within the same exercise?

                          What are the advantages and disadvantages (if any?) of an exercise that builds and flows within the same exercise, versus an exercise like Two Finger Shooting Zen where first there is flow and then there is consolidation, or versus an exercise the way Lifting Water was taught where there is no particular thought towards flowing or consolidating?

                          Fred Chu

                          Answer (Contd.)

                          ... Because of our skills, we can perform any exercise in any approach, though certain exercises may be more suitable to certain particular approaches. We can build and flow at the same time, we can flow first than build later, we can build first then flow later, or we may not have any particular thought towards building or flowing.

                          But for theoretical discussion, we shall consider three categories – build and flow at the same time, flow first followed by build, and no particular thoughts towards flow or build.

                          In theory, and for us, an exercise like Grasping Sparrow’s Tail where building and flowing happen at the same time, gives us the most force for combat and for health, but it takes a long time. It is also the most versatile. The disadvantage is that it needs skills to accomplish the result. For most people, practicing this type of exercise may not give them any result.

                          An exercise like Two-Finger Shooting Zen where there is flow first followed by consolidation, is powerful for combat but less suitable for health. It is the fastest of the three categories to produce internal force. The disadvantage is that it is easy to degrade to isometric exercise, often without the practitioner knowing.

                          An exercise like Lifting Water where there is no particular thought towards building and flowing, is the safest but also the slowest of the three categories to develop internal force. The disadvantage is that it is easy to perform it as gentle physical exercise.
                          Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
                          Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
                          Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
                          UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Question and Answer - 2 - Part 1

                            Next answer .

                            Question and Answer - 2 - Part 1

                            Question 2

                            How does development of consolidating force influence flowing force (and vice versa) and what are important practical considerations to ensure these processes are efficient and balanced?

                            Jacek


                            Answer

                            An excellent way to answer the question is to describe my teaching of internal force over many years, which will reveal not only the influence of consolidated force over flowing force, and vice versa, but also beneficial aspects ,like how this understanding can make our training more cost-effective and how its application can enrich our daily life.

                            Both the terms and the developmental processes of consolidating force and of flowing force are my invention. These terms were not mentioned in internal art classics before, neither were their developmental processes described.

                            Indeed, I don’t have the equivalent Chinese terms with me right now. Perhaps those fluent in Chinese may suggest some relevant terms, here in the open forum or privately via e-mails or messages to me.

                            This will be interesting. This is the first time in the history of internal arts, which I believe are unique to the Chinese, where the philosophy, based on practical experience, was first explained in English and back flowed to the Chinese language.

                            Internal force, of course, existed in China in the past. But terms like “consolidating force” and “flowing force” were not known. The processes of consolidating force and of flowing force did happen, but they were not defined or described because practitioners were unaware of them.

                            Internal force was normally taught only to selected students who had proven their worth. They had to practice the required techniques dedicatedly for many years before they could acquire the internal force. By the time they had acquired sufficient internal force they usually had reached master’s’ level though they might have started their training when they were still students. I myself went through the same procedure.

                            As I taught internal force development to many classes for over 20 years, with more than 100 classes a year and developing internal force was involved in some ways in every class, I had the opportunity to refine its methodology as well as to confirm its effectiveness.

                            One of my earliest realizations was that practicing chi kung was also building internal force. This was not a new discovery but identifying a process, the identification of which contributed greatly to a better understanding and effectiveness in teaching internal force.

                            I discovered that my early chi kung students, without undergoing external exercises like skipping rope and lifting weights, increased their power and stamina remarkably. The force developed was obviously internal. This gave me my first indication that chi kung developed internal force. It confirmed the saying that “internally, train qi”, or “noi lean yiet hou hei” in Cantonese.

                            At this time my approach to chi kung was still through form, though I paid much attention to being relaxed and not thinking of anything, an invaluable lesson I learn some years ago from my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, over casual conversation. In other words, students performed chi kung forms over and over again, and eventually they had a chi flow. Like most other chi kung practitioners today, at first I thought that performing chi kung exercise was practicing chi kung. It was later that I realized the essence was chi flow, and without chi flow it was only gentle physical exercise.

                            Later I discovered that if I led students to be relaxed and not thinking of anything, which I subsequently learned was called a chi kung state of mind in modern chi kung terminology, I could speed up result remarkably. This led me to an important conclusion that the three essential requirements in chi kung or any internal art training were mind, energy and form in that order of importance, confirming another classical principle, which was similar to but an expansion of the one mentioned earlier that “internally, train mind, energy and essence; externally, train tendons, bones and muscles”, or “noi lean jin shen hei, ngoi lean kern quat pei”.

                            This indicates the importance of energy flow in building internal force, or the influence of flow over consolidation. Over the years I also discovered that the smoother and bigger the volume of energy flow, the more internal force was consolidated. This led to my philosophical understanding of the fact that while external strength is limited by size, age and gentle, internal force is not.
                            Profile at Capio Nightingale Hospital London Click here
                            Chi Kung & Tai Chi Chuan in the UK Fully Alive
                            Fully Alive on Facebook Fully Alive
                            UK Summer Camp 2017 Click here for details
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              At this time my approach to chi kung was still through form, though I paid much attention to being relaxed and not thinking of anything, an invaluable lesson I learn some years ago from my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, over casual conversation. In other words, students performed chi kung forms over and over again, and eventually they had a chi flow. Like most other chi kung practitioners today, at first I thought that performing chi kung exercise was practicing chi kung. It was later that I realized the essence was chi flow, and without chi flow it was only gentle physical exercise.
                              This amazing discovery of Sigung always fascinated me the most in our Arts! People get chi flow from repetitive activity, even in jogging ("jogger´s high") and I have had flowing moments before I started in Shaolin Wahnam. The earliest experience of chi flow I remember was during a Pingpong Class when I was 8 years old. I still meet some qigong practitioners from other schools, who say things like: once in a few months I have a real flow, when everything works.
                              To me it sounds ridiculous, compared to our school, where beginners have chi flow every time they practice! I don´t want to belittle the efforts of those lovely friends from other schools. I would even share chi flow with them, but they aren´t open or ask for it.

                              As my Sifu pointed out once:
                              Not everyone can ride a Ferrari.
                              Dear Sigung thank you for widening my horizon!
                              Dear Barry Sisook thanks for the posts! And dear brothers and sisters, thanks for you questions!

                              Anton
                              Engage and maintain joyful practice!

                              May all of you get the best benefits from what you do.

                              Anton Schmick
                              Shaolin Wahnam Germany Nord

                              shaolinwahnamchina.com
                              http://chikunghamburg.wordpress.com
                              http://shaolinwahnam-nord.de
                              http://kungfu-luebeck.de

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Dear Sigung,

                                Thank you very much for taking the time to answer our questions! They're most certainly enlightening.

                                Sincerely with Shaolin salute,
                                -Fred Chu
                                I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X