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  • Kungfu Fighting (Sparring questions): Re Clips

    I downloaded the sparring clips from the web and I am extremely impress with the way you guys spar.

    I am that impress that I even question my own kungfu sparring that I do in my Hsing-I class. After seeing that clip, I am unsure whether I am actually doing kungfu fighting or not.

    I know that we are not supposed to bounce or doing hooks, jabs, upper,etc. In addition, we are supposed to move from 1 stance to another. Finally, continous motion.

    I have the first three but what I lack is continous motion. Now I don't know if this piece is critical in kungfu sparring. My Sifu told me that it's OK not be continous because in most cases it's extremely hard to do so.

    Allow me to explain what my Sifu means:

    Currently, In my kungfu sparring, I am pitted against other styles of MA , mostly against San Da which represent how most people fight thesedays.

    I found out that it's extremely hard to be continous, especially with people who bounce around like crazy (since you can't keep up if you move from 1 stance to another). In addition, I found that it's not a good idea to block boxing punches since it's faster than my Hsing-I strike. ( My solution for this is to just slant my body backward without moving my feet since this one easy technique can dodge all boxing strikes).

    This is where I question my kungfu sparring:

    1. In most cases If I can't keep up with my sparring partner or I can't score a hit, I step backward and get on my trinity stance (in your case, this will be the single tiger pose I think). I then let him attack me first (signal him to attack me first) and I counter.

    2. When # 1 fails, (I can't counter), and he stops attacking me, I stop for a while to make sure that I don't rush in.
    Once I am sure, then I attack.

    3. When my sparring partner is extremely agressive, I just dodge the attacks and wait until he stops attacking or whenever I find an opening.

    My main question is those three above acceptable?? I questions those because those three factors causes me to stop, so to speak, instead of being continous.

    Thanking in advance for any advise/suggestions given.
    "Franciskus, Open Your Chest" Sifu Wong (Intensive Kungfu Course 11/23 -11/29/04)

  • #2
    Sparring suggestions

    1) - Not keeping up

    Dont try to, pick your own time, not your partner/opponents time.
    If you always wait for your opponent to attack you, then you will always be last. If you try to follow his movements (a very common thing for beginners) you will miss many of your own opportunities.

    However, this can also be very usefull as well, but more as a strategy or as a tactic. Allowing your opponent to decide how you will react is an excellent way to surprise them.

    For an example, I sometimes drop to the ground. Once I was in a very awkward position after a successfull counter by my partner (Jeffrey) so I dropped to the ground. He did not approach, unsure if I was attempting to trap him and instead kept a reasonable distance, appraising my actions.

    He could have kept going, rushed in but may very well have ended up in a far more vulnerable position.

    2) - Failing the counter

    Dont stop - if you make a wrong descision, then correct your movement to where it should be. This one will take time to develop and is more systematic, more in the spirit of how we train for sparring. Once you confidence increases and you are spontaneously reacting in the correct manner, then you can start attacking again. Dont get caught up in counter attacking straight away, defend yourself first and then respond from a position of safety.

    In the same session, I ended up catching one of Jeffrey's legs yet failed to action to action the correct counter. Instead, he slapped me on the back of the head and informed me that he could do this all day. Later on, Jeffrey kicked again. I dropped completely under his kick and struck out at his supporting leg with a Tiger Claw, finding a successfull counter and building on my previous mistake - I was in a completely safe situation, as opposed to beforehand when I had been at Jeffrey's mercy.

    3) - Aggressive opponet

    Perfect - avoid your opponent and wait for (or create) an opportunity. Attacking when he is finished his attack, when he pauses to regroup or when you have stopped his advance with a feint, then that is an excellent time to counterattack.

    For an example, when Ronan was atacking me with Precious Duck, I kept my distance. Then when he closed, I kicked him in the ribs. Then when he continued, I moved away again.

    The last is a valuable point - you should be a threat to your partner so that you both benefit from the practice, but you should not need or wish to pummel your partner mercilessly to show him your skills or to demonstrate your superior ability.

    For a final point, we were not ready for free sparring. That was the first time many of us had actually sparred with each other, yet we were able to react using our patterns, both Kungfu and Taijiquan, spontaneously and correctly.
    Last edited by Darryl; 25 February 2003, 06:48 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Kungfu Fighting (Sparring questions): Re Clips

      Quatro, et. al.



      I know that we are not supposed to bounce or doing hooks, jabs, upper,etc.
      Why? I thought one of the advantages of kung fu (in general) is the expanded arsenal of non linear techniques?

      I have the first three but what I lack is continous motion. Now I don't know if this piece is critical in kungfu sparring. My Sifu told me that it's OK not be continous because in most cases it's extremely hard to do so.
      Before I start talking alot, let's define what you mean by "continuous motion." I interpret it literally - multiple techniques thrown with no break in between them.

      If this is true, then I'd say its critical in any kind of fighting method.

      Currently, In my kungfu sparring, I am pitted against other styles of MA , mostly against San Da which represent how most people fight thesedays.
      If you are interested in competition, this statement makes sense.

      If you are interested in self defense, you are making an assumption about your opponent. IMO, making assumptions about what an attacker may do is likely to get you hurt or killed.

      I found out that it's extremely hard to be continous, especially with people who bounce around like crazy (since you can't keep up if you move from 1 stance to another).
      First, practice your stance changes so you are at least able to advance rapidly (faster than someone can back up). Ideally you want to be able to move in all directions as quickly, but forward is a good start.

      Then, pick the right time. If your opponent is far enough away and you haven't disrupted their concentration then (chances are) they will be able to back up faster than you can advance. Especially if they are already moving (ie bouncing) their weight from foot to foot. A body in motion tends to stay in motion, a body at rest tends to stay at rest. Newtonian physics, I think.

      Close the distance between you and your opponent with a technique. It doesn't matter if it hits them or not, you just want them to react to it. In other words, you want your first technique to prevent them from attacking. If you can get them to start backing up so much the better.

      If they react and start running away (or block) then it is the time to start your continuous motion and keep throwing attacks that will either strike them or force them to continue being defensive ie not trying to hit you back.

      If they outrun your initial attack and you cannot cover the distance, break off the assault and wait.

      The trick is to slowly move closer to them until they at such a distance you can explode into a technique, allowing you to close the distance and attack in earnest.


      In addition, I found that it's not a good idea to block boxing punches since it's faster than my Hsing-I strike. ( My solution for this is to just slant my body backward without moving my feet since this one easy technique can dodge all boxing strikes).
      IMO, slanting the body without moving the feet is dangerous. You are off balance (leaning back) and have nullified 3 of your 4 weapons (2 arms and 1 leg). What do you do if they keep advancing? What do you do if they are close enough to sweep the front (or back) leg? If your lead leg is extended, what do you do if they fall on it and attack the knee joint?

      I do agree it will get you out of the immediate danger, I have a training partner who does this all the time. But it leaves you in a weak position.

      This is where I question my kungfu sparring:

      1. In most cases If I can't keep up with my sparring partner or I can't score a hit, I step backward and get on my trinity stance (in your case, this will be the single tiger pose I think). I then let him attack me first (signal him to attack me first) and I counter.

      2. When # 1 fails, (I can't counter), and he stops attacking me, I stop for a while to make sure that I don't rush in.
      Once I am sure, then I attack.

      3. When my sparring partner is extremely agressive, I just dodge the attacks and wait until he stops attacking or whenever I find an opening.

      My main question is those three above acceptable?? I questions those because those three factors causes me to stop, so to speak, instead of being continous.
      Do they keep you from getting hit?

      IMO, yes these responses make sense.

      I'm concerned that you "signal him to attack me first." I'm going to assume you'll stop this at some point and move to spontaneous attacks.

      Comment


      • #4
        This one is going to be fun! I'll post as soon as I get a chance...
        Sifu Anthony Korahais
        www.FlowingZen.com
        (Click here to learn more about me.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Answer with swords...

          Please allow me to add some Fencing theory to this.

          If your opponent is bouncing, he will be doing so in a rythm. As far as I know (unless theres a martial art that teaches this) you can't bounce without being in a rythm.

          Observe his rythm.

          Wait til hes just on his way up.

          Hit him

          Please be careful with this technique: its the one that finally persuaded me not to jump about like a mad rabbit (or sitting duck, which is what you are if your feet are off the ground). I landed on my opponents point and it really hurt. You have to be able to attack like lightning to do this.

          Darryl's mention of ducking down reminds me of the fencing move 'The Boars Thrust', where you stop an aggressively advancing opponent by first backing off, then suddenly stopping in a crouching position with your sword pointed at his stomach. 9 times out of 10 he'll run straight on to your attack. You can also do this without crouching.

          Not sure how this could be used in Kung Fu, though, sorry.

          Chris.

          Comment


          • #6
            Why? I thought one of the advantages of kung fu (in general) is the expanded arsenal of non linear techniques?
            I'm assuming that Quatro was referring to the hooks, jabs, uppers, and bouncing of standard boxing or kickboxing. Shaolin Kungfu has a wide repertoire non-linear and circular techniques, none of which could be confused with boxing.

            Before I start talking alot, let's define what you mean by "continuous motion." I interpret it literally - multiple techniques thrown with no break in between them.
            Quatro, please correct us on this one. I took "continuous" to mean "fluid," i.e. not pausing, waiting, stopping, starting, stopping, etc. I thought you were asking how to be more fluid in all your responses, not just your attacks.

            IMO, slanting the body without moving the feet is dangerous. You are off balance (leaning back) and have nullified 3 of your 4 weapons (2 arms and 1 leg).
            Actually, it's not dangerous if done correctly. Perhaps "slanting" or "leaning" is a bit confusing because it implies a lack of balance. If done correctly, (with a pattern like "Tame a Tiger with a String of Beads" for example) there is no loss of balance or mobility.

            I understand where you are coming from, Mark. In Karate, especially sport Karate, competitors sometimes lean away in order to remove the common point targets (chest and head). They often do this with indiscretion, leaving their front leg painfully exposed and losing all mobility.

            To do this technique correctly, you must do it unobtrusively. Proper timing/spacing is key. For example, I can effectively "lean" away from almost any high kick, and do it safely. I can do this because I have the appropriate skills, as well as the necessary body development. Starting from a Bow and Arrow, I can shift back to "Tame a Tiger" and then back to Bow and Arrow in less than 1 second.

            Though this may not seem particularly fast (1 second is a loooong time in combat), it is tactically fast when used correctly. For example, high kicks are relatively slow. Leaning is an effective counter because it is much faster, relative to the speed of these kicks.

            When leaning back, I am actually coiled and ready to respond with several techniques. Furthermore, I do not lose mobility. I can retreat my front leg if it is attacked. I can move to the side. I can shoot backwards. Or I can coil back towards my opponent with a powerful attack.

            I must emphasize that this technique of "leaning" must be done skillfully. Your stances must be alive and fluid. You timing must be flawless. Your distancing must be correct. And you must choose to use this technique against appropriate techniques.
            Sifu Anthony Korahais
            www.FlowingZen.com
            (Click here to learn more about me.)

            Comment


            • #7


              The fist two pictures might be helpful. Those who have never seen or felt this kind of technique executed correctly may not understand how it could be effective.

              Perhaps it would be better to describe things from the kicker's perspective. You kick expecting to hit, or at worst get blocked. Instead, you hit only air. Your opponent seems to vanish as he quickly slips away from your kick. Imagine kicking a door that you thought was locked but suddenly opens the moment before you make contact.

              If you are a good kicker, you will not lose your balance, but you will (or should) feel vulnerable standing on one leg with your attack spent, your groin exposed, and your opponent coiled and ready to counter. As you withdraw the leg, your opponent quickly follows the leg back in and drives a leopard punch into your exposed groin.

              All of this happens in the time that it takes to execute a good, fluid roundhouse kick.

              Sifu Anthony Korahais
              www.FlowingZen.com
              (Click here to learn more about me.)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sparring suggestions

                Darryl

                Originally posted by Darryl
                1) - Not keeping up

                Dont try to, pick your own time, not your partner/opponents time.
                If you always wait for your opponent to attack you, then you will always be last.
                Its a good point Darryl. I'm going to play devil's advocate. I'm not attacking your ideas or advice.

                Its fine to be last. Unless he hits you first and damages you so you can't counterattack.

                Quatro, please bear in mind fighting is worse than learning American English. There is an exception to every rule and there are more exceptions than rules.

                The trick is to recognize which approach/strategy/tactic is easy for you, when to apply it and when to do something else. All the while keeping your training partner from hitting you in the head AND trying to do the techniques correctly.

                Allowing your opponent to decide how you will react is an excellent way to surprise them.
                Darryl- can you explain this a little more. It sounds like allowing the opponent to dictate the action, which I've been taught is a no-no.

                For an example, I sometimes drop to the ground. Once I was in a very awkward position after a successfull counter by my partner (Jeffrey) so I dropped to the ground. He did not approach, unsure if I was attempting to trap him and instead kept a reasonable distance, appraising my actions.

                He could have kept going, rushed in but may very well have ended up in a far more vulnerable position.
                This is a great illustration of doing something unexpected to cause your opponent to pause and think "What's going on?"


                Later on, Jeffrey kicked again. I dropped completely under his kick and struck out at his supporting leg with a Tiger Claw, finding a successfull counter
                The karate equivalent of Tiger Claw I learned is a grabbing technique. Ok, if you grab you can control or twist/tear to cause pain.

                So where, on the leg did you grab him?

                For an example, when Ronan was atacking me with Precious Duck,
                Quack!

                Ok, I've got another favorite technique name

                The last is a valuable point - you should be a threat to your partner so that you both benefit from the practice, but you should not need wish to pummel your partner mercilessly to show him your skills or to demonstrate your superior ability.
                I agree. In order to get the most out of this drill called sparring you must do everything with the same speed and intesity as if you and your partner were trying to hurt each other. AT THE SAME TIME you must control your attacks (stopping them just short of the target is the only way I know) so no one gets hurt and everyone can come together and train again the next day.

                Short version - your partner's health & safety is more important to you than your own.

                For a final point, we were not ready for free sparring. That was the first time many of us had actually sparred with each other, yet we were able to react within our patterns, both Kungfu and Taijiquan, spontaneously and correctly.
                I disagree with your statement that you were not ready. Maybe not ready to be completely unsupervised, maybe not ready to go full speed/full power. But, if you can put the techniques together using the correct principles then you are ready.

                BTW, I routinely put new students in with experienced students and tell the beginner to do nothing but get out of the way. Naturally, the experienced student is told to use simple attacks and to use much less intensity than they would with their peers or someone more experienced.

                Because I'm an crazy fiend? Although I've been so accused (not in a court of law) the answer is no.

                I find its a good start to getting the beginner used to the stress of the sparring drill. Once they are over this, its easier to apply the techniques.

                Mark

                Comment


                • #9
                  Antonius

                  Originally posted by Antonius


                  The fist two pictures might be helpful.
                  Indeed. "A picture is worth a thousand words."

                  Thanks

                  BTW (karate rant starting) any fool who thinks the garbage you can get away with in the ring is ALL applicable self defense AND is stupid enough to try and kick an attacker in the head in the street either hasn't been paying attention to what their teacher has said or the teacher is an idiot (karate rant over).

                  My scorn is only directed at karate teachers who cause their students to get hurt or worse by providing bad instruction.



                  Mark
                  Last edited by juszczec; 25 February 2003, 03:25 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow, I didn't anticipate a lot of replies in such a short time. Thank you very much for the post, I really appreciate it.

                    Now for the replies (I haven't read all of them, I only read the first two and browse the rest since I need to digest it first ^_^ )

                    juszczec:

                    Regarding Your comment on San Da

                    I have crossed spar with practicioner of boxing, kickboxing, kempo (SP?), karate, and chinese wrestling and I notice that they all have similarities: they bounce around the room, their strikes are from boxing, and kicking from kickboxing. So, IMHO, San Da is a perfect example on how people fight thesedays. Of course there are others who doesn't fight these ways, but very very rare.

                    PS: The only non chinese MA style that I know is different is BJJ who can actually differentiate themselve from the rest of the group.

                    You comment on stances

                    I couldn't move very fast in my stance because it is design to do so. Hsing-I employs half step or skipping step motion. These stances are design to work in a small, confined spaces, not in a big wide area. So, I am actually at a disadvantages if I am trying to chase them acroos the room (ring)

                    Define Continous Motion

                    Download the clip and see it. These people fight like those old 70s kungfu film where their hand always in contact with each other. In addition, they have no break in between.

                    Using Technqiues to keep up

                    I did this actually. However, If I know that if I don't gain anything by attacking, I will actually stop and go back to my guard position. Let him make the first move.

                    Slanting my Body backwards
                    I believe Antonius has given you an excellent reply on this one. My thank to Antonius.
                    "Franciskus, Open Your Chest" Sifu Wong (Intensive Kungfu Course 11/23 -11/29/04)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Darryl:

                      I will reply on your first post first.

                      3. Aggresive opponent

                      My apologies before making this comment because my knowledge is very limited.

                      Based on my understanding, isn't what you describe to me is actually a break in between ? (you keep stepping backward and counter when you find an opening) Or am I not getting you right???

                      In my sparring sessions, this is what I do to, sometimes, and I always wonder if what I am doing is acceptable...


                      Respect your sparring partner
                      Thank you for the advise. I will try to do this to the best of my abilities. Although sometimes, it's extremely hard when you go against a 17 year old teen who is full of raging hormon and just want to really hit you hard like in a real fight ^_^; (PS: I am the oldest in the group , approaching 30, and I mostly spar against teenagers who full of raging hormons...)

                      My solution for this: 1 stinging warning blow.

                      2) - Failing the counter

                      Thanks for the pointers. I will try this in my next sparring sessions then.

                      PS:I am supposed to have a sparring sessions today, but because of rain storm, my sifu cancel the class (He can't afford a studio so we train outside near the beach. The problem is when its rain seasons. ) I am so frustrated right now :-(
                      *Cries*

                      1) - Not keeping up
                      I get it. So what you are saying is actually let my partner to follow my rhythm, right? Will try this during next sparring session. Thanks a lot ^_^
                      "Franciskus, Open Your Chest" Sifu Wong (Intensive Kungfu Course 11/23 -11/29/04)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Re: Sparring suggestions

                        "Its fine to be last. Unless he hits you first and damages you so you can't counterattack"

                        Very true, maybe a better word would have been 'victim'.

                        "Allowing your opponent to decide how you will react is an excellent way to surprise them. Darryl - can you explain this a little more. It sounds like allowing the opponent to dictate the action, which I've been taught is a no-no."

                        A better description of what I meant is that if you give your opponent enough clues, he will assume you will move in a certain way, favour a certain reach, worry about a certain blindspot etc.

                        For an example, Anthony talks of loving kicking, So if you were to spar with Anthony, you would reasonably assume that he will use his kicking a lot. However, Anthony's kicking may be terrible and his boxing/fist techniques may be suberb. Falling for his feint, you would rush through the kicking range to exploit his perceived weakness, only to find yourself unpleasantly surprised. The reverse is also applicable, in that if in his warm up before a fight you saw him practicing his punches repeatedly and they looked good, you may may decide to avoid them and stay at a longer range, then discovering Anthony's kicking was formidable but still not risking closing into his boxing, which could actually be pathetic.

                        "The karate equivalent of Tiger Claw I learned is a grabbing technique. Ok, if you grab you can control or twist/tear to cause pain."

                        Tiger Claw is also used for striking in Kungfu, not just for gripping.
                        As I was protected by his own leg and his momentumn, I struck.

                        "So where, on the leg did you grab him?"

                        I was striking for the side of the knee of the supporting leg - my strike would have been to buckle the leg. It is also worth saying here that Jeffrey's kick was at waist height, not head height. He did not leave a huge opening, which made my counter even more surprising to him and since initially he may even of assumed I was attempting to lean out of his kick he was not prepared for it.

                        "I disagree with your statement that you were not ready"

                        We were not ready in that we were still operating at the level of techniques overall, with occassional tactics and strategies emerging. For one final session, Sifu gave me one technique to use, and the opponent could use anything but had to wait for me to attack them. This was very hard for me as I prefer to exploit an opponents movements. It is also a basic skill, The Three Arrivals.
                        So I was not ready, in that I could not even arrive.

                        "BTW, I routinely put new students in with experienced students and tell the beginner to do nothing but get out of the way. Naturally, the experienced student is told to use simple attacks and to use much less intensity than they would with their peers or someone more experienced."

                        I trained in a school that did the same, only we did it the other way round too. The more experienced person was just to avoid the less experienced person, or they could only jab and circle left (Muay Thai school). We would do others, where one person was 'arms only' and the other 'legs only', with their arms folded behind their back. Or one person was to keep their left foot off the ground and the other person just to grab and rush.

                        That was a great school and I still remember it fondly.
                        Last edited by Darryl; 25 February 2003, 07:35 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          cnholmes:

                          Find the bouncing Rhythm??? Why didn't I think of this one??? LOL

                          Thanks for the pointers.

                          Antonius:

                          Define continous motion

                          You hit it righ on the mark!!! Yes, that's what I meant!!! No pause, don't stop, like in the 70s kungfu flicks. Always in contact with each other.

                          juszczec:

                          Precious duck comment

                          How about these ones??
                          (From Hsing-I kungfu)
                          1. Drilling Fist
                          2. Pounding/ Cannon Fist
                          3. Crushing Fist (ouch)
                          4. Sparrow hawk Flips over
                          5. Sparrow hawk get into the woods
                          6. Leopard climbing the tree

                          I think my favorite name from Shaolin Kungfu will be :

                          Black Tiger Steals Heart.

                          "Franciskus, Open Your Chest" Sifu Wong (Intensive Kungfu Course 11/23 -11/29/04)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Quatro Bajina

                            juszczec:

                            Regarding Your comment on San Da

                            I have crossed spar with practicioner of boxing, kickboxing, kempo (SP?), karate, and chinese wrestling and I notice that they all have similarities: they bounce around the room, their strikes are from boxing, and kicking from kickboxing. So, IMHO, San Da is a perfect example on how people fight thesedays. Of course there are others who doesn't fight these ways, but very very rare.
                            Your reasoning is sound if you are expecting to face people with martial training.

                            But with training, people become predictable. If someone is predictable, you will start to plan your responses around certain expectations.

                            I've been taught that holding any kind of expectations about your attacker in a street fight will get you injured or killed. The only safe expectation is someone will get hurt and someone else will get hurt more.

                            Everyone (all students regardless of rank, style or experience) has a tendency to do this. IMO, that's why its important to spar with different styles/experience levels.


                            You comment on stances

                            I couldn't move very fast in my stance because it is design to do so. Hsing-I employs half step or skipping step motion. These stances are design to work in a small, confined spaces, not in a big wide area. So, I am actually at a disadvantages if I am trying to chase them acroos the room (ring)
                            Even so, you should practice so you can make these half steps/skipping step motions as quickly and effortlessly as possible. Your aim is to be on top of your opponent in the time it takes them to blink.

                            Define Continous Motion

                            Download the clip and see it. These people fight like those old 70s kungfu film where their hand always in contact with each other. In addition, they have no break in between.
                            If I were you I'd be very, very careful about looking for usable techniques in any martial arts film. The fighting shown is done to look good on film and that's about it.

                            Using Technqiues to keep up

                            I did this actually. However, If I know that if I don't gain anything by attacking, I will actually stop and go back to my guard position. Let him make the first move.
                            When you do this, beware of an opponent who will fake an attack and retreat in an attempt to draw you out.

                            Mark

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Quatro Bajina


                              juszczec:

                              Precious duck comment

                              How about these ones??
                              (From Hsing-I kungfu)
                              1. Drilling Fist
                              2. Pounding/ Cannon Fist
                              3. Crushing Fist (ouch)
                              4. Sparrow hawk Flips over
                              5. Sparrow hawk get into the woods
                              6. Leopard climbing the tree

                              I think my favorite name from Shaolin Kungfu will be :

                              Black Tiger Steals Heart.

                              [/B]
                              These are all great names, but my favorite so far is Precious Duck. There is alot of comedy in such a name, especially when you think of one person attacking the other using a duck

                              Yes, people have told me I am strange

                              Mark

                              Comment

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