Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Can Kung Fu be used for fighting?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Can Kung Fu be used for fighting?

    Following on from the previous thread "Is Kung Fu a Martial Art?"....

    Many say that traditional Kung Fu, including its hand forms, patterns and stances, cannot be used for fighting.
    - Is this really so?
    - If Kung Fu cannot be used for fighting, then why were the stances, patterns, hand forms etc. developed and what is their use?

    Andrew
    Sifu Andrew Barnett
    Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

    Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
    Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
    Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

    Chi Kung Courses: May 2019 in Landquart CH
    QEA Discussion Forum: www.qea.ch/forum

  • #2
    Just a thought...

    Of course it can be used for fighting - isn't the argument "how effective is it?"

    A bunch of flowers can be used for fighting, but you might not get good results.

    Personally, having seen the video clips of Sigungs senior students sparring, if I was to fight with them I wouldn't adopt the careless attitude of someone who didn't believe in its effectiveness.

    Regards,
    Chris.
    Last edited by cnholmes; 6th September 2004, 12:32 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      A bunch of flowers can be used for fighting, but you might not get good results.
      I like it Chris!!! Mind you, try fighting against someone with a handful of cactus plants

      Of course, from the Shaolin Wahnam perspective, Kung Fu stances, patterns etc. can not only be used for fighting but are also the most efficient way to fight. We train the way we would fight and we would fight the way we train. But what do others who practice other styles / from other schools think? The idea of this thread is not to start a public shouting match, which has maybe happened elsewhere, but more to gather information from different schools of thought.

      Looking forward to some more replies

      Andrew
      Sifu Andrew Barnett
      Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

      Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
      Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
      Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

      Chi Kung Courses: May 2019 in Landquart CH
      QEA Discussion Forum: www.qea.ch/forum

      Comment


      • #4
        yes you better believe it!

        BEFORE:
        Until about a year ago I was of the opinion that kungfu and japanese martial arts could be used for fighting, but that most of the exponents could not use them.
        I believed there were experts in China, Japan etc who could use them, and some nightclub doormen and security/armed forces personnel who could use some techniques to an extent, but that these were the exception.
        I didn't just dream this opinion up from nowhere, I got it from going to about 25 or 30 different schools and having sparred in quite a few of them. (All of them that even did sparring that is!!)
        I was resigned to the fact that boxing was as good as it gets, as none of these people, including muay thai kickboxers and jujitsu fighters who were the best I found, were anywhere near the standard of western boxers, in England and Ireland that is.
        In fact I believed that most non-boxing martial artists could be grouped into people who were exceptionally weak or paranoid, or those who were lulled into a false sense of security by being taught 'deadly moves' but never getting a chance to test them against real opponents.
        In short, I thought that the average martial artist was absolutely no match for a boxer or an experienced streetfighter, and in fact was usually a less capable fighter than an average guy with a bit of strength or aggression!
        The standard is so low in my country that if you tell someone you are a martial artist, or get into a situation and take up a karate stance or something, you will be laughed at!

        AFTER
        Whereas now… I still think the exact same things as I’ve said above!
        With a couple of notable exceptions! Now I’ve seen what real kungfu masters can do and they are just incredible. I always hoped that the stories I’d read about past masters were true but I never imagined that there were any still alive today. And the things I’ve seen even surpass some of the amazing things I’ve read about in books. Before witnessing with my own eyes I couldn’t even imagine the levels of ability that were possible.
        So to me the question is not “can kungfu be used for fighting”, the question is: can anything be used to fight against high level kungfu? Certainly not streetfighting or boxing! The only thing I can think of is a gun!

        Comment


        • #5
          Drunken Boxer - some good points there.

          I too have met many of the types of people who thought that these things - at their level of skill - would give them self-defence. In practice of course fighting is a dirtier and nastier thing than most of them have experienced in their lives.

          There was an interesting excerpt in a newspaper a while ago of the diary of a reformed (violent) bouncer. To cut a long story short the thing that made him quit was when he almost killed a karate black belt in a fight.

          I agree with your conclusion - high level kung fu skills from genuine schools practiced over a long period of time are unsurpassable. At the opposite end though there are a lot of people fooling themselves into a false sense of security with lower level stuff/inadequate-insufficient practice/etc and would be torn apart by some violent thug who has spent his life fighting in pub car parks with beer glasses.

          Looking at the two tribes (for want of a better world) I always thought it interesting that Dan Docherty both trained with Cheng Tin Hung (sp?) and was in the Hong Kong Police. Wearing the latter hat given the sort of guys the HK Police crossed would have left no doubt at all for which techniques work well in 'pretend' sparring, which in competitions, and which on the street. I will never forget his answer to a girl who said 'what is the best technique if a guy is standing next to you' (expecting some Chinese-y Martial Art-y Tai Chi-y answer). Dan answered 'hit him in the balls and run'...

          Mike
          "If you realised how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think a negative thought." Peace Pilgrim.

          Comment


          • #6
            Kung Fu for fighting

            Hey guys,

            Just thougtht I would add my own opinions to this thread. Yes I do believe that Kung Fu can be used for fighting. But what style of Kung Fu are we talking about and in wjat context.

            I would not be teaching Wahnam Kung Fu if I thought it could not be used for fighting. after some careful consideration about the system. I consider this one of the best ways to teach a Martial Art any martial art, ie aim/objectives, going from form ro fromless etc.

            Just to name few of the concepts and skill in Wahnam Kung Fu.
            What it comes down to is the individual and their ability, motivation or will to fight. I know that if it comes to a physical conflict and I cannot get myself out of it then I will deal with it in the best way I can. I have been exposed to physical and verbal aggression almost in a daily basis due to my job( I am psychiatric nurse on a busy acute ward).

            This has given me some insight into conflict. How I react, how other people can react and believe me this can be in some of the most unexpected ways. ( getting hit by a zimmer frame!!)

            This I feel can be the down fall of Martial Artist that get lulled into a false sense of security ( training partners going easy or not giving the appropriate stimilus, or a class turning into a social event)

            I feel a system can be good but it comes down to the individual and their training method and their teacher.

            Thanks Mark A
            Sifu Mark Appleford

            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              I was similar to Drunken Boxer about 8 years ago. I was a Karate black belt from a tough, fighting school. I equated Kungfu with Wushu, and dismissed it as gymnastics. Then I met my first Kungfu Sifu (Fu Jow Pai Kungfu). Watching him spar his disciple opened my eyes. It was the first time I had seen anyone use Kungfu stances and patterns outside of a movie!

              I'm sold now. I've sampled many martial arts. Some are very effective and dangerous. But I still don't think there's any comparison to genuine Kungfu. In all my travels, I have never met anyone with Sifu's level of power (even amongst Kungfu masters).

              Aside from the health benefits and the elegant efficiency of Kungfu patterns, I think two things set it apart from the rest: Internal Force and Mental Clarity.

              With either one of these skills, you have a decisive advantage. Internal force adds incredible power to your strikes and simultaneously helps protect you from blows. Mental Clarity enables you to see combat as if in slow-motion. Either one of these would be enough to push an art to the next echelon.

              What's even more amazing is that a seemingly simple exercise like Golden Bridge can develop BOTH of these skills simultaneously. So if they laugh at you for practicing something that looks useless for combat, just smile. If you persist, you'll be the one laughing in 10 years.
              Last edited by Antonius; 10th September 2004, 12:56 AM.
              Sifu Anthony Korahais
              www.FlowingZen.com
              (Click here to learn more about me.)

              Comment


              • #8
                Good points guys.

                I too had the eye opening experience the first time I saw real kungfu.

                And Mike's points about the glass wielding thugs are very relevant.

                And the point about the HK police is relevant too I think. As I said I used to think martial arts techniques usually didn't work against streetfighters or boxers but once had a job in a factory where a couple of my colleagues had been ex-bouncers, policemen and prison officers and they showed me a few locks that they said had worked against some extremely tough streetfighters.
                I still wouldn't fancy them against Mike Tyson though! Actually I think that is an interesting point, in my part of the world and in my own mind, the frame of reference for a fighter for a long time has been Mike Tyson. How many martial artists do you know who could beat Mike Tyson (at his best?) I have only met a couple who I think could beat him, and I'm talking the level of masters and MAYBE their very best students. If anyone says Royce Gracie or whoever the latest UFC exponent is, please allow me to have a little chuckle to myself!
                Maybe this should be a poll in another thread?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Different Perspective

                  I find it very interesting that there is this popular perspective of people believing that Kung Fu is not effective for fighting.

                  I have been involved in Kung Fu since I was a child, and this was the only form of fighting that I knew growing up.

                  I was effective in dealing with every form of aggression. Regardless of system, style, or achievement. But the greatest good wasn't from me winning and my opponents losing.

                  The greatest good came from me winning, and my opponent winning.
                  This came from both opponents not escalating to conflict, but both parties leaving with honour, pride and an intact body.

                  There is nothing to match genuine Kung Fu. The system is beyond simple tricks for self defense.

                  It is wonderful, simply wonderful.

                  Best wishes,


                  Anton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I couldn't agree more Anton.
                    It is wonderful, it gives many other benefits as well as combat efficiency, and I am now aware that nothing compares to it for combat effieciency. But I wasn't always aware of this (before I saw a master in action) and I think there are many people who are not aware of it. Certainly I'm sure that most people don't realise just how efficient it can be.
                    And as Sifu so eloquently and humorously put it on his recent course, our main objective is to come out of combat unharmed, whereas other martial artists seem to regard all manner of punishment even sometimes including death as 'worth it' as long as they are victorious!
                    I suppose my points about boxers, other martial artists etc are concerned with us 'keeping it real' and not getting too carried away before we reach a good standard.
                    I struggled with this a lot early in my training and even until quite recently. Because I had only begun practicing kungfu my skills and force were minimal, so I was reluctant to abandon my boxing where I had a reasonable ability. I kept practising kungfu techniques and thinking "could I use this in a fight" and of course at the time I probably couldn't. And also "would this work against a powerful boxer" and again, at the time it wouldn't. But eventually I realised two things which were staring me in the face:
                    (1) Even my boxing skill was limited against a more powerful boxer (one who was naturally bigger, stronger and faster).
                    (2) I had the evidence in front of my eyes of what was possible with kungfu(my master) and that was way above anything I'd seen from any boxer, streetfighter, or other martial artist.
                    So therefore the only sensible course of action for me was to abandon everything else and practise kungfu as much and as best as I could.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wow... thank you for your amazing posts. They area few years old but it's truely inspiring. To think that these posts were here two years after I really started getting intrested in Chi and Martial arts at the age of 15.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                        Following on from the previous thread "Is Kung Fu a Martial Art?"....

                        Many say that traditional Kung Fu, including its hand forms, patterns and stances, cannot be used for fighting.
                        - Is this really so?
                        - If Kung Fu cannot be used for fighting, then why were the stances, patterns, hand forms etc. developed and what is their use?

                        Andrew
                        - Is Bible true? Is Koran true? Is Torah true? Are all parable literally true?
                        - Nothing can be used for fighting if your mind is not ready.
                        - Everything can be used for fighting if your mind is ready.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          - Is Bible true? Is Koran true? Is Torah true? Are all parable literally true?
                          - Nothing can be used for fighting if your mind is not ready.
                          - Everything can be used for fighting if your mind is ready.
                          Dear Black Tiger,
                          The best way to find that out is to try it out.

                          I agree with you the mind is the most important factor. Therfeor Shaolin Kung Fu is so effective in all manner.

                          It's a training of body energy and mind. All genuine Kung Fu is complete by itself. All genuine Kung Fu is training body energy and mind not only to be effective in combat, but also effective in getting good health and vitality, furthermore to get mental clarity and last but not least to cultivate spirituality.

                          The Great Damo himself showed the practicing monks the 18 Lohanhands and funrthermore the Sinewmetamorphis and the Art of Bone Marrow cleansing at the Shaolin Northern temple.
                          The monks were already meditating, I guess on a fairly high level. Some of the monks for sure had a high level, even before Damo went to visite them. But still he would teach them the mentioned exercises. Why? I think it was because the Great Damo knew that the Shen/mind was growing only if the body also was heathly. And of course vice versa.
                          Therefor he thought the monks a complete system, which would work on all levels, body, energy mind spirituality.

                          If it was already perfectly for all benefits of human beeings, it was only logical, that with systematic training and development it would become the Greatest martial Art. Out of the 18 Lohanhands Shaolin Kung Fu was developed and systematically perfected.

                          Because it was time tested by many many Masters through centuries it is clear that it should be able to be used for fighting! I dare to say if it cannot be used for selfdefence or combat it's no Shaolin Kung Fu, at least not genuine.

                          Shaolin Kung Fu is a practical Art, and therefor it was used in life/death situations over hundrets of years. This is the legacy of Shaolin at the end of the Great Damo.
                          "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                          26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                          Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                          Website: www.enerqi.ch

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Amazng!

                            I know the mind is an important factor but the amount of time and energy needed to create a workable fighting form from scratch is almost impossible. Why work so hard at fighting when all you achieve in the end something similar to boxing. It's alomost impossible to see if an amazing kung fu type system works if you don't know a fully working kung fu type system and to try and re figure all the techniques what could or could not be kung fu but is effective fighting would take a life time. Again the system could end up being like boxing.

                            Who thought Damo? aliens??

                            I'm not being sarcastic.
                            Last edited by Mbyte; 19th October 2008, 07:38 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mbyte:
                              I know the mind is an important factor but the amount of time and energy needed to create a workable fighting form from scratch is almost impossible.
                              That's the reason why it is best to choose a complete Art. It wouldn't be a good use of time, to only prepare onself for fighting. Unless you are a professional fighter.
                              So , the time one spends for his Shaolin Kung Fi training is well spent. It may give you health and vitality. Which actually makes your life more enoyable. All human beeing wish to be and keep healthy and grow to an old age. Furthermore it gives you clarity of mind which may improve your mental performance. This can make your job more enjoyable.
                              You may develope tremendous internal force which can be used to maintain life, to imrove life and to perform whatever you like better.
                              You may even once a while merge with the Cosmos or return to the Tao or Zen.

                              Looking at this I think it's all worth to spend some time with Kung Fu.

                              Nobody sais that from the scratch on you are a formidable fighter. But if you persist in you training and if you persist in training the traditional way, then, you may become a formidable fighter after a reasonable time.
                              The traditional way means to be able to build up internal force, to be able to let the Chi Flow, to train patterns, combat sequences and at the end to train free sparring. The traditional way also means that whatever you train, you will benefit on all levels, othetwise it's not genuine Kung Fu.

                              Originally posted by mbyte:
                              Again the system could end up being like boxing.
                              This statement is not correct if you consider the mentioned points I have shared.

                              Originally posted by mbyte:
                              Who thought Damo? aliens??

                              I'm not being sarcastic.
                              I don't know what you are tying to say.

                              I don't actually know who was teaching the Great Damo. What I know is that he also was renouncing the throne, as a prince to leave everything to cultivate. Later he was spreading Zen Buddhism to the Shaolin temple.
                              "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                              26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                              Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                              Website: www.enerqi.ch

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X