A Discussion on Yielding

[Marcus]

Just a quick post to say that I will post on Yielding and grips tomorrow evening. Thankyou all for your patience. It's been a week of family commitments and birthday parties

See you tomorrow.

Kind regards

Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Marcus]

Hanging Fist and Yellow Bee

Hello everyone,

Suppose your right arm is being held at the wrist by your opponent’s right hand, and he is pulling you forward. How would you counter using the yielding concept in Taijiquan?

Before reading on, give this question some thought, it will help you to get more out of this post.


First, don’t resist. If his grip is form and you pull back your arm sharply, you may dislocate your wrist.

Instead, follow the momentum of his pull. This is yielding. Use your left hand to ward off any strikes he may make with his left hand.
But you must not just move forward directly, as suggested by Sifu Stier’s advice earlier. In my opinion,i f you do, it would be you, and not your opponent, who might stumble and fall face down.

Then, what should you do? As you move forward, rotate your waist in an anti-clockwise direction, and simultaneously move your arm backward, upward, forward and downward in one smooth circle in a “hanging fist” pattern. The circular movement of your hand will release his grip. Then “hang” your right fist on his head, shoulder or collar bone.

This is the secret – one that many masters in the past kept. (I do not know about Sifu’s case here.) This is also the continuous process of yielding, deflecting and countering in one smooth movement, and the movement must be large – an important point I mentioned in an earlier post where I disagreed with Sifu Stier’s concept that movements must be reduced in size to be combat effective.

If your opponent avoids your “hanging fist” or if it is not convenient to strike him when your fist is coming down, you can bring your fist up again in an arc to strike his temple, using the Taijiquan pattern “Yellow Bee Sucks Pollens”.

I know that Sifu taught this counter at a recent regional Tai Chi Chuan class in Costa Rica. I will try to get some photo's from that event (if you're reading this and you were there, can you post them here, or send them to me and I'll post them.). Failing that me and my trusty companion Simon will give it our best shot at Wednesdays class .

I will shortly be posting a lovely e-mail I recieved from Sifu Piti Parra Duque (after asking his permission of course). It relates to Yielding in Business practice. I think it makes a perfect addition to this thread because one of the major differences I have noticed between Shaolin Wahnam and other schools is our use of tactics and stragegy. Not only for combat use, but perhaps more importantly in our every day lifes. Sifu Piti's e-mail is an excellent example.


Kind regards

Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[steve]

I have been following the various applications of "yielding" against different attacks, which is all good, but I still feel that the concept of yielding in a true tai chi sense is missing.

All those applications of "yielding" can be described by using other terms, which I have mentioned before. Basically, the "yielding" applications are done with substantial energy.

It's about being insubstantial. When you yield in tai chi, you become insubstantial. You become transparent! That's how your yielding will truly neutralise the attack. When you speak about " after you neutralise, then attack", your substantial state (attack) must rise from your insubstantial state.

If we do our techniques with physical strength, it's wrong... we know that.
If we replace physical strength with chi flow, it gives us a better advantage... we know that.
If we keep a substantial state with our chi flow movement, our mind hasn't truly changed from a person that uses physical strength. We have merely replaced strengths. Staying substantial when yielding, even when using chi flow, would make it an external form of internal.

Tai chi is internal, internal... one's general state becomes insubstantial... it's based on the Tao!

[Marcus]

Hello Steve,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have to say though that your "style" of explanation was one of the main reasons that I stopped practicing Tai Chi many years ago. As a student then (not with Wahnam) I gave up on ever understanding Tai Chi Chuan, believing myself to be just too ignorant to ever understand all the principals and "concepts". Your last post was a typical example e.g.

It's about being insubstantial. When you yield in tai chi, you become insubstantial. You become transparent!

I believe that all such an esoteric explanation achieves is to make something far more confusing and ambiguous than it really is. In my experience if you can't explain something clearly and simply in terms that students can understand, then you probably don't understand it clearly yourself. I'm sure this is not the situation in your case, but I am tired of reading and hearing such confusing and meaningless explanations, especially in relation to Tai Chi Chuan.

I am so delighted to be a student of Sifu's, because what he teaches and what he explains is simple, direct, effective and easy to understand. Just read any of his Q & A series if you want an example. Here's an example I feel relevant to this post (taken from Sifu's June 2001 (Part2) Q & A):

I clearly remember that in my early days with Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, my sifu told me, "One does not learn kungfu, he practises kungfu."
That was good advice from a great master. When you learn kungfu, you add techniques, or worse still you add theoretical information. When you practise kungfu, you go over and over again what you already know, without adding something new.

These days I much prefer to practice what I know and leave the "Theory" for others to spend precious time on.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Antonius]

Well said, Marcus.

I think we need to coin a new phrase as Kung Fu spreads across cyberspace. Instead of "Flowery Fists, Embroidery Kicks," how about something like "Flowery Adverbs, Embroidery Adjectives"?

Steve, I agree with Marcus. We've never met (er, have we?), but somehow, I think that you do understand what you're talking about. And yet, I also agree with Marcus that your style of explaining things is not for me.

To each their own.

[joko]

Interesting.

Thanks, Sihings Marcus and Korahais, for surfacing this.

Those explanations from past Taichi Master were meant for the students learning directly from them, and not for today's practitioners!

When attending Intensive Chikung Course (not Taichichuan Course) last April Sifu kindly revealed this 'secret.'

From then on I 'forget' those 'explanations', and instead of relying on the 'explanations', I am applying the skills acquired from Sifu when practicing my Taijiquan Forms.

But then occassionally when practicing I experienced something that made me understand the meaning of those 'explanations! So knowing them (but not yet understand) is still benefial.

Dear WahNam Taijiquan Sifu and Instructors:

Why not start a thread discussing this interesting subject in Taichichuan Section?

Thanks,
Joko

P.S. Sifu again explained some of the secrets during the recent Intensive Taichichuan Course.

[Charles David]

Shaolin Synchronicity/ Simple, Direct, Effective Speech

Dear Anthony Siheng,

You suggested:

"Flowery Adverbs, Embroidery Adjectives"?

Check out,
Flowery Phrases, Embroidered Arguments from this thread a few days ago.


Marcus Siheng,

I fully agree with you regarding Sifu's manner of writing and speaking. It reassures us that he has absolutely no need to bamboozle. It also reminds us that a hallmark of a great teacher is making profound ideas understandable.



Still,
Sidai,

[joko]

"Flowery Adverbs, Embroidery Adjectives"

Dear brothers,

Sorry if it is a little bit off topic.....

While explanation 'style' such as given by Steve can be considered as 'Flowery Adverbs and Embroided Adjectives', and I fully agree that there is no need to complicate things with explanations that may be confusing instead of making it clear, or even not clear to the explainer himself,
I certainly would not agree if the same attribute is applied to the sayings of past Taichi Masters like 'the Ten Points of Yang Chen Fu', and other great poems such as
' Song of Silent Sitting' attributed to Zhang San Feng;
'Secret Song for Practicing' by Wu Yu Xiang;
'Classic of Yellow Palace' by Chen Wan Ting,
and others.

It is true that it is not easy to grasp the meaning of those poems. There will come the time when the practitioner can grasp the true meaning, through experiences in our practice. The experience will not be the same for each practitioner, though.
Meanwhile, it is better to give explanation by not using the phrases if one has not understood the phrases reasonably well.

One may ask then why we should give such attention to those poems which we have not yet understood?
One of the benefits is that once we understood the meaning through experience in our practice, they help us understand the meaning of other Ancient Chinese writings such as the book of "Yi Ching" and 'Tao Te Ching", which would then bring us closer to understand the meanings of other great works written by Osho, Anthony de Mello, Krishna Murti, etc, and then the true meaning of holy books such as the Holy Bible, The Quran, and other holy books.

With respect,
Joko

[steve]

I'm sorry for the confusion. I've tried in my previous posts to use different terminologies and explanations, even an exercise. I was taught with those words. My teacher could do what he said and pass it on. At first I thought those words were confusing and I was sure that there were better ways to explain these methods. Once I started grasping what was being taught, I realised those words pretty much had it covered.

If you were to explain, in words, about chi flow to somebody that wasn't familiar with the experience, they wouldn't catch what you're actually trying to get accross until you get them to feel it for themselves. Fortunately with Sifu Wong's method, chi flow can be taught in minutes.

Unfortunately the more subtle something becomes words begin to fail. That's why poems were written instead of direct explanations in order to get accross a feeling. Once experienced, then it's obvious.

Attempt to explain "Transparency".
It's right there in front of you, but when you try to grasp it you seem to go right through it" It would be like, putting your hand out to shake hands, but as the person is about to take hold of your hand, you slip your hand away... and they grab sweet fresh air . Or when you think there's a step and there isn't. In yielding your whole body needs to be like the hand that disappeared or the step that isn't there. Your body is soft, it's a mind thing. To be honest this is a pathetic explanation. I can see dodging an attack instead of yielding.

All I can say is that, from what I've seen, there is an aspect of yielding that is not being addressed. I'm unable to explain in words and to be honest I don't think a video would help either. When your teacher demonstrates yielding right in front of you and at first you have no idea what's actually happening. With correct guidance and practise it comes.

I've brought it to your attention, perhaps further down the line in your training you might find it necessary to seek this out.

[Antonius]

Nice explanation, Steve. Thank you for that.

Actually, I agree with you on many counts. What you are talking about is a depth of skill. It is not so much different as it is deeper, at least if I am reading you correctly.

Here's a more "solid" example that will hopefully clarify things for everyone. Imagine that we are having a discussion about the uses of the Tiger Claw. Imagine that most of what is being dicussed is various ways to grap your opponent's arm. Then imagine that someone who has a very powerful Tiger Claw steps in to the discussion and says, "You don't just grab; you grip! End of fight!"

To someone just beginning with the Tiger Claw, that statement might not be meaningful. But to someone who has good skill with the Tiger Claw, that statement might make sense.

My point is that the students talking about grabbing are not wrong. Neither is the person with the powerful Tiger Claw. They just represent different stages of development.

Actually, what we are talking about here is not just beginner's stuff. It is quite sophisticated. In Shaolin Wahnam, even fresh beginners are taught sophisticated techniques. But the way a beginner use "Single Tiger Emerges from Cave" is not so much a difference in technique as it is a difference in skill.

Steve, you yourself admitted that many things cannot be captured with words. What we are doing here is trying to deal with the things that CAN be captured with words.

[steve]

Thanks Anthony, well put.

At least mention the skill ("the grip") that can't be explained in words, so that people become aware that there is more. Otherwise the "grab" may stay a "grab" forever!

[Marcus]

Conclusion

Hello everyone,

Today I became aware that I had not posted Sifu Piti Parra Duque's contribution to this thread. So for the sake of completeness, please find his post on Yielding and it's application to business below:

Dear Marcus

I thought you could use this info about other applications on the art of "yielding":

You might not know this, but other than teaching Shaolin Wahnam Chi Kung I work for Parra Duque & Asociados, a Latinamerican-based corporate development company www.pdacol.com.

One of my reasons to practice Taichi Chuan is because I’ve found it to be a great metaphor for many applications in the corporate world. Recently, I’ve been teaching executives "fundaments for negotiations". Here, we have come to realize the importance of "yielding" as a conscious role of a negotiator. We usually come into a negotiation looking to win. Our negotiation power focuses on our rational capacity to debate and find comparative strengths on our services/products/prices/discounts... Usually, when focusing on this "Argumentative" side of negotiations, we forget about "the Fundamental" part of it. As if we would forget our stances in TCC and focus only on arm/hand movements. These fundamentals include the conscious capacity to yield gracefully to allow the counterpart to "attack" with arguments, giving us the opportunity to generate new perspectives in the negotiation. Yielding in a negotiation does not mean giving up or losing, but offering vulnerability through questions about the counterpart’s perspective to allow the full debate to happen. Once we have attentively and actively listened to their offer, and have asked with real interest to fill us up with more info about it, showing interest in finding a new outcome, the counterpart usually feels less threatened, opens up and allows for both parts to find a more reasonable outcome. This is a very difficult habit to acquire. We tend to enter a debate with "force against force" causing a no-exit situation. We both lose, but each feels they won "their one case", because we proved the other one wrong. Yielding is an art which needs to be trained and practiced until it turns natural. A negotiator that knows how and when to consciously yield has better fundamentals to make his/her arguments more effective.

Best regards,

Piti

___________________________

Ah, that's better, I now feel that this thread is complete. Thank you for reading and to all who contributed. I know I learnt a lot
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha