Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Yang Style Combat Application by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I never said stance training was not important, I just think the difference between IMA and Shaolin, no matter how subtle they might be, is there. In alot of Shaolin styles, the stances are used to deliver power and maintain rooting, clearly the better one's stances and strength is, the quicker he can move in these positions.

    In lots of styles of Shaolin, a punch for example, is delivered while throwing a punch by using the waist, and the legs/root as a "hinge." They can be quite powerful and explosive, but not the same as IMA (this is not debate of what is more powerful). The waist is the most important part it seems, as well as the root to ensure a stable delivery. The transition from a gong bu, to a mabu is a huge example of the power generated from moving from one stance to the next (put a strike at the end of gong bu)

    IMA is different, in Chen style the END result of the punch might be a gong bu (still not the same, legs aren't completely bend and you keep circle in kua and posture). But it is not just the transition from the previous stance to gong bu that generates the power, it is the subtle little tiny movements, coiling, and compression that goes on. I chose Chen to elabrote on this because it is perhaps the most visible and easiest way to train it. Silk Reeling greatly helps in deliver this kind of strike. From here you realise that this kind of movement, and coiling can be applied from ANY position, it is just shown that way in the form for specific and obvious reasons, including the training of the body...

    The purpose of postural training in Shaolin and IMA Is very similar but in some ways very different. Rarely do you ever use the circle walking as it is done in the form in a real situation, neither do you use the postures in an actual fight. It is a way of training the body into a "bagua" body, it makes your muscles and ligaments both flexible and strong (explosive), it allows you to use the whole body's connected power even when your waist and legs are moving in different directions (and arms as well). Moving consistently and flowing into your opponents defenses/offense and never being "fully weighted." Keeping the momentum going and being able to stay perfectly connected/balanced as it you build it up and your opponent ends up "tasting" the accumulation of the momentum that has built up, as well as his own force and your own. Similar to Shuai Jou.

    Xingyi uses alot of compressing, and even coiling in modern forms (I do Hebei). Clearly it has borrowed alot from Bagua and taiji. It is not the posture that becomes important, it is what you learn from the movement that is important. That same thing you learned can be applied however you want it, even outside the context of the form. You can apply part horses mane technique in a stance higher than you do it in the form. Clearly one of the main benefits and obvious similarties between ALL cma is that it conditions and makes you stronger.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc9YD9fwKm4
    Look at the punch at around 53 seconds. Aesthetically, it might look the same as all shaolin, strong waist, and using legs for rooting. But if you look closer his legs coil and compress, his dan tien rotates, even his arms coil and compress before the final "release." I have seen some styles (like white crane) that use similar fajing, but it is still not the same. This kind of force can be done from a high stance, and even explosively without the obvious "coiling." This is for practice..that is what forms are for.

    Comment


    • #17
      But yeah, in the end, at the high levels of either form of martial art, internal or external, it is the same stuff. THey are both of equel levels of efficiency, the approach and the method of learning is different.Just clarifying my thoughts, did not want to make one think it was better than the ohter.

      So in that sense, yes, they do have the same methodologies

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Baguamonk

        First of all, thanks for continuing to engage in a dialogue with us on this forum. While we obviously do not agree with some of what you have written, there is also some common ground.

        I thought I would address the points in your latest post. Your first two paragraphs are fairly accurate in that the stances are there for, inter alia, power and rooting. Sifu has said often that "the power comes from the back leg". Shaolin Wahnam students will know that the transition from the back-weighted leg to the front leg in the Bow Arrow stance and the simultaneous turning of the waist activate the spiral force from the dantian.

        I understand most if not all of what you mean by the coiling effect, because that is also the way I was taught in my Taijiquan. However, just because our Shaolin style uses long and deep stances does not mean that power cannot be issued from a high stance, or that we rely on body mechanics alone.

        I don't recall Sifu explicitly stating this but I think he had transmitted an important principle to us in a non-verbal way. One crawls before one walks and one walks before one runs. Before one can hope to fight from high stances (like Master Sun Lutang), one must begin low, because a novice needs the form to help him understand the internal movements in the body. Need to learn how to sink? Bending the knees and lowering the whole body is an extrinsics way to teach the body to sink the qi internally.

        One of the most amazing things about Sifu is how he gets total beginners to understand the essence of the art. I suspect one reason for this ability is how Sifu gets the student to directly focus on simple body movements - "stand with your feet close together", "open your mouth", rather than clutter the student's mind with complex instructions like "think of your kidney, and let the qi flow there from your dantian" (this comes later).

        Too many Taiji people approach their art with an intellectual arrogance vis a viz Shaolinquan. I keep hearing comments like "Shaolin is an external art - it relies on punching sandbags and has no internal aspect. It needs deep stances for power, while we train with high stances because our qi roots us to the ground". Yet, all those who make such comments probably cannot beat a trussed chicken in a fair fight. They speak as if they were already at the pinnacle of Taijiquan like Yang Luchan while their foundations have not even been laid. A master, whether of Taijiquan, Shaolinquan or Baguazhang, can issue incredible power on tip-toes. A beginner needs to sink his stance and rely on form and what internal force he has to have any semblance of power.

        I take your point that some of the posture training in Bagua is not used exactly as they are in real fighting. Your point I believe is that the postures are meant to teach the body to move in any permutation in combat. I agree to some extent, but I also take the view that because the postures are different expressions of jing (or energy), they are used as they are practised in the form. Parting Horse's Mane for example is a "Lie" jing. One could in theory use "White Crane" or "Xie Fei Shi" but if "Parting" is used (usually instinctively), it will be the best posture for that situation, and it will be recognisable as such, even though the other two postures mentioned are very similar to look at.

        At a higher level, the technique may be less obvious because the master uses his internal force with the technique only as a conduit. But if you look closely enough, the technique is still discernible (if much smaller or or nearly invisble). For the rest of us, we need to start from the base of techniques first.

        As humans, we fight with our limbs and body. The postures/techniques/patterns are just a reflection of the most effective ways to use these weapons. In Taijiquan, the techniques are programmed into the body as input both to teach internal movements and also to be used in future as output (actual application).

        Sure, combat situations are unpredictable. But with only two legs and two hands, there is an inherent limitation as to how an unarmed attacker can come at you (the permutations increase with edged or other weapons). You may more often than not find yourself in the same situation as the master who invented (or discovered) the technique for that situation. Then, using that same picture-perfect technqiue gives you the best advantages. Taijiquan teaches you to react instinctively with the postures in your repertoire, not react in an outlandish manner without regard to basic form.
        百德以孝为先
        Persevere in correct practice

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Zhang Wuji View Post
          I understand most if not all of what you mean by the coiling effect, because that is also the way I was taught in my Taijiquan. However, just because our Shaolin style uses long and deep stances does not mean that power cannot be issued from a high stance, or that we rely on body mechanics alone.

          I don't recall Sifu explicitly stating this but I think he had transmitted an important principle to us in a non-verbal way. One crawls before one walks and one walks before one runs. Before one can hope to fight from high stances (like Master Sun Lutang), one must begin low, because a novice needs the form to help him understand the internal movements in the body. Need to learn how to sink? Bending the knees and lowering the whole body is an extrinsics way to teach the body to sink the qi internally.


          Too many Taiji people approach their art with an intellectual arrogance vis a viz Shaolinquan. I keep hearing comments like "Shaolin is an external art - it relies on punching sandbags and has no internal aspect. It needs deep stances for power, while we train with high stances because our qi roots us to the ground". Yet, all those who make such comments probably cannot beat a trussed chicken in a fair fight. They speak as if they were already at the pinnacle of Taijiquan like Yang Luchan while their foundations have not even been laid. A master, whether of Taijiquan, Shaolinquan or Baguazhang, can issue incredible power on tip-toes. A beginner needs to sink his stance and rely on form and what internal force he has to have any semblance of power.

          I take your point that some of the posture training in Bagua is not used exactly as they are in real fighting. Your point I believe is that the postures are meant to teach the body to move in any permutation in combat. I agree to some extent, but I also take the view that because the postures are different expressions of jing (or energy), they are used as they are practised in the form. Parting Horse's Mane for example is a "Lie" jing. One could in theory use "White Crane" or "Xie Fei Shi" but if "Parting" is used (usually instinctively), it will be the best posture for that situation, and it will be recognisable as such, even though the other two postures mentioned are very similar to look at.

          At a higher level, the technique may be less obvious because the master uses his internal force with the technique only as a conduit. But if you look closely enough, the technique is still discernible (if much smaller or or nearly invisble). For the rest of us, we need to start from the base of techniques first.

          As humans, we fight with our limbs and body. The postures/techniques/patterns are just a reflection of the most effective ways to use these weapons. In Taijiquan, the techniques are programmed into the body as input both to teach internal movements and also to be used in future as output (actual application).

          Sure, combat situations are unpredictable. But with only two legs and two hands, there is an inherent limitation as to how an unarmed attacker can come at you (the permutations increase with edged or other weapons). You may more often than not find yourself in the same situation as the master who invented (or discovered) the technique for that situation. Then, using that same picture-perfect technqiue gives you the best advantages. Taijiquan teaches you to react instinctively with the postures in your repertoire, not react in an outlandish manner without regard to basic form.

          Excellent post. I agree with everything you said. I was not saying that it could not be done from a low stance, I am just trying to break the "Static" view of internal and external arts often seen. You can apply this type of force from various different methods, and it is not exclusive to just Shaolinquan or Taijiquan.

          When you say that you have to learn how to crawl before you walk ETC. is completely true, if you look at some of my other posts I pretty much describe that. You ALWAYS learn like this, all I was saying is that at some point you don't need to rely on something so "picture-perfect" as it is no longer needed. The way of movement and fighting is so natural that you only take the shape or "form" of what u need to adapt to what is coming towards you. Hey, if thats a long elongated posture that happens to look picture-perfect..sure why not?

          The only reason I bring bruce lee up is because he had some good ways of describing some of the deeper philosophical concepts in a more concrete manner. For example, his ideas on "Responding" to a stimulus. Freeing yourself from the Ego so that you act accordingly, flow with the situation, instead of clash against it. So no longer you have to relate what is being thrown at you, to your memory, then to your ego, your interpration or current understanding of the art, to finally come up with the appropiate response. While it can be done, it is not nearly as efficient. As many monks have said, Shaolin is nothing without "zen." This to me is what IMA is about since the beginning, in external you start from the outer form in, and in internal you start vice versa. They are both just as important. That is what I was trying to illstrate by "picture perfect" it is not often that we have to do so, people who generally fight us are not going to be at such a high skill level that we have to bust it out perfectly, and over-doing it might actually sometimes give the instinctive, non-trained fighter (if he is instinctive..) an edge.

          And exactly as I said, they both lead to the same point of "efficiency." As they used to say, internal arts start focusing on the soft, and then on the the hard, while external arts focus on the hard at the beginning, and then more internal later on.
          Last edited by Baguamonk1; 26 September 2006, 05:08 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            as far as I can tell, and I am by no means any sort of authority on ba gua zhang. The circle walking as it is practiced in the form is THE most advantageous way to make use of and apply ba gua with sparring and in real time. Certain things I noticed about it, that I in one way or another learned from the 16 shaolin combat sequences, is that if you are moving laterally very fast, your opponent may try to intercept your movement with a side attack (from their perspective) aimed at your front, it is then very easy to step laterally towards them to intercept the attack. a lot of times for the straight attacks, it is simply a matter of speeding up or slowing down the circle walk. This is just my thoughts after revisiting some initial interest me and my Si Dai have had in ba gua, before we could apply any kung fu real time. Again, I stress that I have no sort of specific ba gua force or an amazing knowledge of the ba gua training and postures. But from my perspective from this sort of experimentaion through sparring. A picture perfect circle walk when using ba gua (or at least trying to)is a tremendous advantage for me.

            "HER-IT!"

            Comment


            • #21
              The original link was removed.

              Here's another video by Dr. Yang:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLIFy...eature=related

              Comment


              • #22
                That's not Dr. Yang. That's Liang Shou Yu I believe.
                Sifu Anthony Korahais
                www.FlowingZen.com
                (Click here to learn more about me.)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Ah that's right thanks Anthony. These two are always working together.

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X