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  • #61
    Davie was ungrateful, rude and arrogant and thought he knew better than the Master. I’m embarrassed for him.
    Would like to make one more comment on this subject.
    This has been pointed out for his and other’s benefit.
    IMO, on the contrary! (yes, I get it; it's my last "insult" (hopefully)

    Obviously stumbled into fresh politics.

    IMO I wasn't insulting, but it's your kwoon, which makes it your choice. Thank you for the long explanations.



    • #62
      In Shaolin Wahnam we only teach deserving students. If a student is not deserving, we tell them in a straightforward way. If a student does this in on a public forum, then we just tell him that he's being ungrateful.

      The same is with you, Hellsviking. You're implying that we're idiotic. You're being insulting.

      Originally posted by Hellsviking
      Funny way of showing it! Calling someone a fool to help them smarten up has a very low success rate.
      We don't just teach anyone. We're not concerned with gathering more and more students at any cost.

      If someone is ungrateful, we neither teach them nor try to help them.
      It's not wise to waste our time.

      With an ungrateful attitude, it's better that the person leaves the school.

      With an attitude like yours, they wouldn't be allowed in the first place.
      少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan


      "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

      -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit


      • #63
        No comment. You feel that my posts are insulting. I said I would stop posting.

        Please be so kind as to refrain from bringing me into the discussion.


        • #64
          Dear Erik,

          After reading your PM to me, it is clear that you have no place on our forum.

          Best of Luck,

          On behalf of the forum moderation team,
          Charles David Chalmers
          Brunei Darussalam


          • #65
            I was really looking forward to discussing MMA with Hellsviking. How can people be so touchy and goaded into arguments so easily, especially a martial artist - couldn't see Randy Couture getting wound up like that he'd just laugh it off.


            • #66
              Hellsviking asked not to be brought into the discussion yet he post in such a way as to tell the instructors and our school what is right and proper.

              Davie approached the discussion without thought for the consequences of his approach and manner of his delivery.

              It is the above that is considered rude and insulting yet I am not convinced either of them can see it. Or perhaps they both can but are the sort of people that like to goad, insult and wind up situations just to see what happens. It is either stupidity or ignorance or a combination of them both.

              It's not even the fact that Davie suggested our fees are too much or that he has genuine concerns that the populace is not being reached by our arts. By concerning himself with not enough people being able to benefit from our teachings he is recognizing our arts bring great benefit. This is not in question.

              It becomes insulting when Davie and Hellsviking forget they have entered a 'Virtual Kwoon' and that rules apply. This is an easy mistake to make I suppose if you are not used to such etiquette but both of them practice martial arts and should know better.

              I can hardly imagine Davie walking into a class or course being given by Sifu Wong or another Shaolin Wahnam instructor and shout aloud in front of current students and guests to the class that what we teach is unfair, exclusive and too much money. He would be thrown out immediately and asked not to return for being so insulting and breaking the 10 Shaolin Laws.

              What we teach and our rules are not meant to punish, they are meant to guide to lead the practitioner to mental clarity, right thought, right speech and right action.

              Both Davie and Hellsviking have demonstrated that they have not yet reached this level and violate our rules. We have tried to show them the way but they have not recognized this. Instead of continuing the conversation both decide to run away. Hardly scholar warriors.

              I wish them both well in spotting the pot of gold in front of them next time instead of looking the other way.

              Best wishes

              Tim Franklin

              A story of finding Courage and Wisdom

     Classes and Courses for Shaolin Kung Fu, Taijiquan and Qigong in Bognor Regis, Chichester, West Sussex

              Fully Alive on Facebook Energy Flow for Health and Happiness

              UK Summer Camp Qigong, Taijiquan, Shaolin Kung Fu, Spiritual Cultivation with Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit



              • #67
                Originally posted by Luo Lang View Post
                If someone leaves there is no logical reason to still participate as you left because of a disagreement.
                Indeed - it makes no logical sense at all.

                If you enjoy the benefits of the Shaolin Arts but no longer want to be part of our school then just leave. Take what you learned with you, practice, bring more happiness into your life and into the lives of other people.

                Why all this anger? What is the point of kicking the furniture on the way out? Decide what you want to do and just enjoy your life!

                Best wishes,
                George / Юра
                Shaolin Wahnam England

                gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Charles David View Post
                  Dear Viking,

                  Some of my brothers have told you that you need to be repectful in order to participate in our forum.

                  For example, this kind of writing is not acceptable:

                  This is our forum. Please do not presume that you can tell us how to discuss topics. If you do not like the way we handle things here, there are plenty of other forums.

                  Frankly speaking, I am not inclined to take advice, nor heed the opinions, of an anonymous poster.


                  Dear Charles Sipak,

                  Your point of view inclines, that you dont accept any critique on the way how we - Shaolin Wahnam - handle the forum. Where else shall he puts his critique, when not here? Do we only accept ppl in the forum, who dont criticise us?

                  I wish you a good start in the week


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Antonius View Post
                    Dear Davie and Dougie,

                    I wish you both the best of luck. With your attitudes, you're going to need it. I mean that seriously and sincerely.

                    All the best,
                    Dear Antonius Sipak,

                    Why do you need to write: "you are going to need it"? Isnt this like a slap on the backhead while they are walking away?

                    Kind Greetings


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Feynman View Post
                      Your point of view inclines, that you dont accept any critique on the way how we - Shaolin Wahnam - handle the forum.
                      That is correct.

                      Remember that this is not a public forum as such - we treat it as extension of our school (although we allow guests to come in), therefore to criticise the way we handle it is the same as criticising the way we run our school. Doing it on the forum is the same as walking into one of our training calls and (publicly) criticising the way we teach, which is rather rude.

                      Best wishes,
                      Last edited by George; 22nd March 2010, 01:02 AM.
                      George / Юра
                      Shaolin Wahnam England

                      gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Feynman View Post
                        Dear Charles Sipak,

                        Your point of view inclines, that you dont accept any critique on the way how we - Shaolin Wahnam - handle the forum. Where else shall he puts his critique, when not here? Do we only accept ppl in the forum, who dont criticise us?

                        I wish you a good start in the week
                        If someone walks into my studio and starts critiquing me on how I run my school, I will kindly ask him to leave. This forum is Sifu's school. It's exactly the same thing.

                        For example, if someone doesn't like the fact that Sifu puts such a big emphasis on Zhan Zhuang and stances, that's fine. It's their prerogative to feel that way, and they are free to leave. However, they are not free to stand there and tell us how silly we are for spending so much time practicing Zhan Zhuang.

                        Originally posted by Feynman View Post
                        Dear Antonius Sipak,

                        Why do you need to write: "you are going to need it"? Isnt this like a slap on the backhead while they are walking away?

                        Kind Greetings
                        I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. I sincerely believe that their attitudes are not conducive to succeeding in these arts. I've been around long enough to see that attitudes like that don't succeed. Thus, they are going to need all the luck they can get.
                        Sifu Anthony Korahais
                        (Click here to learn more about me.)


                        • #72
                          (Before I begin, let me preface by saying that this post below is meant for general reading and is not directed at any specific individual)

                          To put things in perspective, and taking the analogy by Anthony Sifu further, imagine yourself in a qigong or kungfu class in a public park. Your Sifu knows that in a public park, there may be curious onlookers gathering around, but has told you that you should not be ashamed of practising your arts in public. He allows all the rubber-neckers to look, but when one of them starts to say "why are those idiots dancing around like madmen?" (ie, in vigorous qi flow), a senior student walks over to tell the rubber-necker to hold his tongue as he will distract the students. Then an airhead of a student tells his senior, "hey, leave that guy alone. He has every right to criticise how we are practising." The onlookers then start jeering at the qigong class, and the airhead student looks smug at how "courageously" he has stood up for the rights of free speech by outsiders. If this sounds ridiculous to you, look no further than the direction that this thread is taking.

                          I certainly agree that constructive criticism can only make our school better. But there are ways to do it right. I have in the past been guilty of being out of line in my criticism, so I understand if some students may not always agree with how the forum rules are enforced. Perhaps in the course of defending the honour and integrity of the school via this forum, we may seem defensive. But honestly, better overly-enthusiastic than apathetic, right?

                          And after all, it is easy for someone not undertaking the thankless task of forum moderation to criticise, just as how it is easy for the average citizen to condemn a civil servant trying to do his job (most people are not aware of the limitations and difficulties of a civil servant). Shaolin Wahnam members have a vast range of opinions and some of them conflict with one another. The important thing is how to have all these different opinions exist together harmoniously. Also, there is always room for a civil debate with other schools and practitioners of other arts who may have a different view from ours. But having a rude outsider come in and make uninformed comments does not help things, and especially not when he is aided by traitorous insiders.

                          Back to the topic of fees and deserving students, I would now like to pose a further question.

                          How do most students show that they are worthy or deserving? They pay their fees on time, show up for training, and perhaps train regularly on their own at home. This is the bare minimum, but I always felt that people have this idea that simply paying money gives them some aura of entitlement.

                          Those of you who have read Sifu's autobiography would know that although Sifu learnt kungfu from his first Sifu, our Sigung, Lai Chin Wah, without paying any money, it was not free in any other sense of the word. Before Sifu started his first lesson, he was present at the training ground night after night, watching the students train. When he became Lai Sigung's student, he cleaned up the training hall before and after training.

                          To paraphrase the immortal words of John F Kennedy (or his speechwriter), ask not what your art can do for you, but what you can do for your art. Every student needs to ask himself, other than the silver and gold, dollars and cents he pays as part of the agreed terms of learning in the modern context, what has he done?

                          An analogy of a church-going Catholic or Christian comes to mind. Many Catholics are what we call Sunday Catholics. They turn up every Sunday for mass, give a weekly offering (some people don't contribute anything), and disappear for the rest of the week and hopefully remembers to pray every night. Yet, others volunteer their services in the choir, wardens, catechism or cleaning the church. The former fulfil the barest obligations, the latter try to be the best Catholics they can.

                          As in kungfu, being a good Catholic is not about being or looking busy in church work, but the kind of attitude and heart you have. If you really desire to live the Gospel life, your actions will reflect your inner passion. If you are truly passionate about Shaolin kungfu, you will not be an empty vessel, or simply do the least work possible. Instead, you will not only be dedicated and consistent in your daily practice, you will also help out your Sifu and school in whatever little way you can. I stress that one should not do anything to show off or make a show of how "loyal" one is to Sifu and Shaolin Wahnam (or, as we say in this part of the world, to "wayang"). Compare how some Shaolin Wahnam students live the Shaolin laws on and off the forum, versus how others make snide comments on the very same forum. Fortunately, many of the latter are now ex-students.
                          Last edited by Zhang Wuji; 22nd March 2010, 04:28 AM.
                          Persevere in correct practice


                          • #73
                            Hi Andreas,

                            I see that Anthony K. has answered your questions directly and succinctly.

                            Allow me to add: personally, I will accept or reject criticism based on its merit. In this situation, I saw little validity in the Viking's criticism, so I chose not to accept it.

                            Where should he put his criticism? He can put it where he wants, but we are not interested in hosting him on our forum. Simple, right?

                            As far as who we accept on the forum: we accept almost everyone who registers. How long they remain our guests is at our discretion. As it turns out, the Viking made an entirely unacceptable private message, which was the cause of him being banned.

                            All the best to you for a productive and enjoyable work week.

                            Last edited by Charles David; 22nd March 2010, 08:31 AM. Reason: style
                            Charles David Chalmers
                            Brunei Darussalam


                            • #74
                              Just goes to show that (free) people can charge what they feel is right, and other people can feel about that however they want!

                              Overall outcome - at least we're all free to trade, think and do as we wish! Which is a helluva lot better situation to be in than many people on our planet!


                              • #75
                                Hi Everyone!

                                Some time ago I decided to make the best possible learning of Virtual Kwoon and dared myself to question and interact with other Sifus from different latitudes than Latin Sifus with the intention of expanding my vision and combine it with knowledge in other continents.

                                Also, in another thread in the "Spanish Area of the Kwoon” I wrote about an experience I had with a great friend who I had not seen for over 8 years . The summary of that conversation is this: We told each other what we were doing nowadays..he told me he practices yoga and other things, and I told him I am a Student of Shaolin Chi Kung. In that conversation, my friend constantly refuted my practice, he questionned it, and said this was a business rather than a spiritual art because... spiritual arts "are not charged" ...

                                While I have my reasons and clarity of the benefits that Chi Kung and Tai Chi Chuan has brought to me this time I decided not to enter into a confrontation, it also seemed useless and preferred to share other subjects with my friend. After all ... I was not going to convince him of anything! I just thought, the only way to convince hi mis if he went to a Chi Kung Course with my Sifu or Sigung… then…. He’d know!

                                I was interested to hear what other Sifus had to say about this.

                                I have reviewed many times the thread of questions and answers Sigung wrote where he addresses the issue price and other things. Also this complete thread. Just by reading it I felt intense emotions, sometimes it let me with my eyes wide open, sometimes even a Little scared and asked myself, Do I really want to write here? What if I give the wrong impression? But then I remembered one of my sifu’s favorite phrases: don’t intelectualize too much!

                                My Sifu often encourages us not to "marry" and "blindly believe" his perspective and that we should ask other Sifus from the school about things that makes us curious or we want to have different views, etc..

                                I received many comments from several Sifus from Europe and I am glad to say that they were very valuable… All the messages opened my eyes in a different way. I am greatful for your kind words and I wanted to tell you what I learned in those interactions with other Sifus

                                I learned from Sifu Andrew that offering an Art cheaply and / or free makes people not to value it.

                                With Sifu Anton, I got a simple way to see if I compare how much a private fitness trainer charges, our School is so much cheaper!, comparing what a fitness instructor gives to what all Sifus and Sigung deliver in a course ... then I have received 10X'N times.. for surely both Chi Kung and Tai Chi Chuan impact both my physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. I also learned his perspective from the Restoration of the Glory of Kung Fu. And even got a story about all he had to do / work personally in order to attend a course with Sigung. This story reaffirmed that the issue is never the price, is the decision and faith of the person to regain their vitality , wellness and longevity

                                Sifu Andrea helped me with many questions and her conception of the "worldy" and "Spiritual". I rescued the word "wordly" There is nothing wrong with it.. and have a thriving business that generates vitality and wellness is also very healthy.

                                Sifu Benedikt confronted me with a very simple question: Imagine that a person with cancer pay $ 20 for a class to overcome his illness ... Do you think that person will believe he will overcome his disease?. My internal response is similar to what Sifu Benedikt said. ..I wouldn’t believe it. I also learned that most Sifus are not in a monastic path .In many temples where the monks are willing to receive a flower or a bracelet as a reward ... Because they are Monks! But Sifus from our school are not, and it is ok to make a living, and also helping others.. Very much like a doctor! they charge for their job and that is ok too!

                                A key phrase in that conversation that I venture to write literally that made me laugh and gaver me clarity:

                                You do not sell a Porsche for $ 200, right?

                                Sifu Rama gave me his perspective on the motivations of different Masters, in search of service, economics, power, and how in other schools there is no harmonious balance between these elements.

                                I am deeply grateful for your comments, also to have taken the time to answer my private messages and have taught me from your eyes how valuable it is for everyone in this Kwoon the Art of Chi Kung and Tai Chi Chuan.

                                I would also like to thank Sifu, for encouraging me to interact with other Sifus from around the world! It has been a great experience!

                                ... With the learning obtained, each day I feel more cheerful to belong to this school ...

                                …And now if I had to deffend my school from an offensive attack I’d know how to do it... with some prett nice arguments!... hahaha….

                                Smiling from the Heart!

                                Last edited by Daniel Jimenez; 27th January 2012, 07:24 PM. Reason: One word