How can i phrase this i really want to know !

[Michael Durkin]

Hey George, no worries, glad to see you enjoying yourself.

Mark CH, thank you for your contribution. It goes to show that there are people out there that have made an effort to experience Shaolin Wahnam at first hand, and yes, things do look slowed down greatly when viewed via video compared to seeing in real life. Can't quite pause, play, forward, rewind life as easily as windows media player can we. Nice if we could though wouldn't it

Another thing I'd like to add about my sparring in that video with Anthony is that there was quite a height difference between us, which brought a new aspect to our training. The same patterns that I had practiced on my own and with other people were now working quite differently, this was something new for me right there while still practicing the same old thing. Make sense?

Not even the height aspect, but just a different person makes the same things we practice different. How many times can we really repeat something and have it exactly the same? Everything is always changing right?

[Kin Tama]

Hi wahnam ch, the reason i hide my identity is to look innocent and steal the secret techniques nah just kidding , the reason is because i dont like to show off like "" hey man ive done so many styles but i thought i would check you out"", most ppl take it wrong dont like to teach you etc so i just go in there like a begginer as if i dont know anything. Or you get teachers telling you what you WERE doing is no good. Like oh you did jujitsu thats no good wing chun is beter. Ok WTF ?!
About who i am , erm im just a normal bloke ! Im no famous personality who you would know of neither am i a notorious poster online or even have a website.
Ive studied various arts , starting from shotokan karate, for a tiny negligible amount of time, then i did wing chun for about 5 years, then i moved to aikido for about a year, hung gar for 2 years. Then moved on and learnt taichi and sanda as well as a traditional family tiger style for about 4 years . Finally I have been training in a combination of wado and goju karate for the past 2 years.

As for the names of my teachers you wouldnt know them and i would feel uncomfortable to post them, they arent famous, my first 2-3 teachers were just normal schools like any run of the mill you would find, my aikido teacher was a korean almost like a missionary you could say for a certain line of yoga cant remember what the yoga was they were called dada's and didi's cant remember the style of yoga now doesnt matter.
My last 2 teachers / masters great grandmaster whatever you wanna call them.
They were my main teachers who taught me pretty much everything that works one was a direct student of of a yang style lineage holder, cant remember which one i have a photo of the guy in a book, we were going through with sifu once and he is like hey its my teacher . He also knew a certain family style tiger which is a really weird weird style nothing like what we see in movies books and wushu, and was ranked 3rd in china in sanda tournaments about 15-20 years ago now. He came over and just taught me privately for about 2 years everyday and the after he left i spent the next 2 years studying on my own what he showed me.
The last guy is a 3rd line in wado ryu karate from the founder.

About internal all through this ive been doing meditation/yoga/chi kung/ki excersises
started heavily after leaving wing chun.
Hope that didnt sound like i was blowing my own trumpet (now that would be some real kung fu )

Phew that was a long one,

thanks for posting up michael im just going through the video clip right now and pausing it at the seconds you mention.
I will try and give you examples of what i mean by being more efficent and or ""higher level"" for each you move you outline with a reason, to try and explain what i mean this is good point for discussion.

in the first example.
you see the punch coming as the opponent is stepping in there is no need to change stance go all the way back and block and then side kick, from your cat stance you can simply step in with a front kick as your opponent is taking time to change stances either with the front leg, or bring the back leg forward and kick.
If you have already changed to taking as stance back like you had then no need to block your opponents punch your leg is longer than his arm. If you noticed the fact that you blocked made your arm counter his and gave him time to counter your kick with a low block, your kick should BE the counter not the block. You should be with mid kick at his mid punch.
In example 2 its a little confusing because this is one of the things when i say what purpose does it serve as i have said before, just before the kick you spend time countering each others moves without trying to gain the advantage. I cant really coment on this other than i don think its good to put yourself at a point where you and your opponent are equal and only strength or speed separate you.

I see what you mean in example 3 its a bit difficult to make it out , but yes this is a good concept, however you dont take advantage of this at all , you fall back to attacking with the next hand like a begginer would. Since you make an opening and lift up his arm , push in and attack the opening with the same hand or whilst the hand is up front kick to the unprotected part of the body on the left.
In the first level you can block then attack on the second level you can attack and block at the same time on the third though you simply counter attack there is no need to block you can block but its only a safety precaution its not your main aim or technique or tactic.

Example 4 is a great example of what i am describing above where i was saying you make an opening push in with the same arm , the reason he "got" you is because he didnt bother attacking the other side of the body he attacked your opening. With ONE hand.

In the last example i cant tell what is going on very well with the hands but at one point i see abig opening and you take it which is ideally what you want to do take advantage of that opening.

The thing is its very difficult to try to explain what im trying to without showing it, its kind of like a package thing you either do this as a package or do that as a whole when your sparring.

I know what you mean about the problem with being thrown into freesparring so soon. without learning the technique
my hung gar class was a lot like that, everyone looked like kickboxers and im like wtf
so the teacher is like let them do whatever comes natural so im like why do we spend 1 hour doing tiger claw blocks then ??

[shaolin_mike]

certain line of yoga cant remember what the yoga was they were called dada's and didi's cant remember the style of yoga now doesnt matter.

Would that be Ananda Marga?

[Kin Tama]

Lol yeah man !!! thats it , really nice guys i never actually followed that path, but he would teach martial arts and in return and we would donate to their cause. It was their centre and living quaters so we he would make us vegetarian stir fry's and other food afterwards.

[George]

you see the punch coming as the opponent is stepping in there is no need to change stance go all the way back and block and then side kick, from your cat stance you can simply step in with a front kick as your opponent is taking time to change stances either with the front leg, or bring the back leg forward and kick.

I've had a look at the video (ZASparring4.wmv) again. I think this has already been briefly mentioned, but Sifus Antonius and Michael are actually illustrating the progress from _combat sequences_ (which is why there is so much 1-for-1 attack-retreat stuff) to free sparring. Sifu Antonius posted above a link to the description of the stages. I can only recognise the first two combat sequences (sequences No: 3 and 4,) although I have only practiced these at Stage 1 (self-choice) and Stage 2 (pre-choice) out of the 7 stages. The video focused on progression from Stage 5 to Stage 7 (free sparring.)

I hope this clarifies things a little.

[shaolin_mike]

Lol yeah man !!! thats it , really nice guys i never actually followed that path, but he would teach martial arts and in return and we would donate to their cause. It was their centre and living quaters so we he would make us vegetarian stir fry's and other food afterwards.

Yeh they are nice people, Im going to a weekend seminar with them at the end of the month. I think its thanks to their influence that I eat as much veggies as I do and my skin has gotten much better as a result

[Andrew]

Hi wahnam ch, the reason i hide my identity is to look innocent and steal the secret techniques nah just kidding , the reason is because i dont like to show off like "" hey man ive done so many styles but i thought i would check you out"", most ppl take it wrong dont like to teach you etc so i just go in there like a begginer as if i dont know anything. Or you get teachers telling you what you WERE doing is no good. Like oh you did jujitsu thats no good wing chun is beter.

Thanks for explaining that as well as your experience in many different martial arts. I know what you mean about how some schools / teachers react to students who come from a different background. I can assure you this is not the case in Shaolin Wahnam. Just as an example, several of my own Kung Fu students have studied other martial arts -- some of them very extensively. I knew about it and those who wished to continue their previous style whilst learning from me were certainly allowed to do so.

Most students, however, make a decision to follow one style only at some point. Some have stayed and one or two have left. All of them have my continued support and best wishes.

The most important thing with all of these students though was that they came to me to learn something. They came to me AS students and not as authorities. In this way they have been able to learn from me and I, in turn, have learnt much from them.

So please do let us know if / when you attend a course with Shaolin Wahnam. I can assure you there will be no disadvantage for you in doing so --- in fact the opposite will likely be true.

Andrew

Andrew

[Michael Durkin]

Dear Kin Tama,

Thanks for the background info.

I'd like to come back to some of the comments on the videos at a later time, and thank you for making an effort in replying. But before that I feel the need to ask you some questions that may appear tough, but they need to be asked so maybe we can understand your way of thinking.

then i read the shaolin betrayal story and i thought this is a joke right

Its no joking matter in the slightest. But this I think just shows the difference between your way of thinking and ours. Are you saying its a joke because you have researched the matter and have an informed understanding, or have you let the momentum of your general feelings of our organisation let you speak before thinking on this very sensitive matter?

then i saw the international champions sparring clips, again no attack against anyone but good lord this is what made me write up how could you people actually practise this drivel

"no attack against anyone"...."drivel". It is our Sifu that leads us in our practice, you are attacking him and the people you mention. Why did you say one thing, then do the opposite?

"International champions ? Can you honestly look yourselves in the mirror and say if i did these moves at that speed in those competitions i won i would definately have won again. If so then please enlighten me what competitions did you win ”

Here you are questioning the validity of these champions, rudely too. It's amusing some how, you now want them to make effort to reply to you in spite of your rudeness. If your not careful you will start closing doors on yourself. We don't expect, or want you to grovel at anyone's feet, but couldn't you have asked a sincere question in a polite manner?

Do you believe these champions to be false, is that why you don't care how you speak about them?

You have used Mr Kai, or Sifu Kai, as an example several times. But have you sparred with an international champion before?

If i had no respect for shaolin wahnam i wouldnt bother even posting up

Hmmm, some of your contradictions are amusing at times.


I hope you don't take my questions and thoughts the wrong way, I don't bare any hard feelings towards you. You just make me wonder sometimes with some of the things you have said.

Thanks for your time.

[Kin Tama]

hi wahnam , of course i would like to take a course when the opportunity arises, usually i combine this with a holiday as i am not in the position to go abroad whenever i like as we have quite low wages in this country, so often if i go to the united kingdom to see relatives then i might go to a local club or somewhere where friends train etc, so ofcourse i would be interested to try and combine the two.

Concerning the things Michael writes, no i dont take anything the wrong way. Thats the whole point of discussion if two people always agreed one of them wouldnt be necessary

About the shaolin betrayal story , it was so many pages that i had read a hefty chunk of it , then i skimmed through it and the reason i said this is a joke , is because from what i understood the gist of it is someone believed another teacher was better or more suited so they switched. I didnt think this should be took so to heart, also the way it was front page on the website with such a drastic message.
It didnt look so serious to me in the sense that its not like they undermined sifu wong trying to go around slating him , causing any physical damage to any schools threatening anyone etc.

Hi about directly attacking your sifu , maybe its the other way arround,as i said before a lot of the q&a sections are quite offensive to people who practise other styles.
I will give you an example Back 10-15 years ago once yip man died everyone was claiming to be the ultimate wing chun successor, until one guy decided to put an advert in a well known highly publicized martial arts publication saying he is the best undisputed and will accept any challenge. On one of his trips to germany this grandmaster gets attacked whilst giving a seminar and in short really doesnt manage to show anythign that resembles wing chun let alone his "greatness"
Now who is the bad guy the one who was making all the claims or the one who jumped him at the seminar ?

About the international champions statement i dont think i was being rude, i merely asked if they seriously could believe that with what they practise now they could rewin those competitions and if so what competitions were they?

Lets face it there are more international champions than competitors in this day and age, and 99% of them are tottaly unheard of other than on their own websites and or the organisation they are affiliated with.
I will give you a simple example , a newly opened organisation i think opened about 4 years ago in greece, world kickboxing organisation, they host their world amateur games and people flock from the whole world, from as far as usa they host the events, people are declared champions etc etc and you really couldnt classify them as champions any way you look at it, anyhow to continue with the story they also have a pro full contact kickboxing division, they decided to host the world championship fight on the island i thought wow this i have to watch , the fight consisted of a local , with another guy from another part of greece for the world title, this i really didnt understand, i thought ok maybe its just an empty slot in this weight category,os they wanted to assign a local anyhow 2 rounds later the local wins. I thought surprise surprise, a few months later with no other fights in between he is referred to as european champion. I thought why the demotion ? You see politics make champions that no one has heard of. This is why i dont like to hear the words "world/international/national champion"
The same story that has been happening for the past so many years until recently with muay thai fights in thailand , where no matter if a foreigner won and how many many many times this had happened the thai's would still claim their best fighters are undefeated.


You imply i am attacking sifu kai pointing the finger at him , my point here is i am not attacking him or debunking if he is good or not what i am saying is firstly that from what i saw in the video clip i was dissapointed , thus could he honestly say that using these techniques he could re-win the same competitions ?
The second point i say is not wether he is an international champion or not , i am asking what was he an international champion of , you state grandmaster of jujitsu, but as far as i know i have never seen any really large international traditional japanese jujitsu competitions. Thus he could be a kata champion of karate which really doesnt prove the point we are discussing which is combat effectiveness.
Again i dont like talking about sifu kai because he does not feel the need to answer for whatever reasons and its like talking behind his back, i asked a simple question which was could he honestly say that what he does now would make him do better than before, and if so in what competitions , if he feels that either i am below him or being rude to him and he doesnt answer thats fine because im sure that he has had people questioning his abilities before and yes he has the right not to answer.
Anyhow im off to work

[Michael Durkin]

Dear Kin Tama

About the Shaolin betrayal story ;

from what i understood the gist of it is someone believed another teacher was better or more suited so they switched

Its a shame that people miss understand Shaolin Wahnam's reason behind the stand against CFQ. This is highlighted when you explain your own understanding. The gist of it is not that "someone believed another teacher was better or more suited " as you say.

Hi about directly attacking your sifu , maybe its the other way arround

Maybe its the other way around or maybe it isn't, everyone's perspective, position and opinions are different. But I ask the same question, why did you say you weren't going to attack anyone, but then proceed to use an insulting word about what our people practice?

Your comments about Sifu Kai being "good or not":

i am not attacking him or debunking if he is good or not

and

look at how mr kai is standing in the opening scene a kickboxer would destroy that leg

You are saying that Sifu Kai's stance is not very good for a kickboxer.

I agree that we can't talk behind Sifu Kai's back too much, so well just have to see what happens.

Speak soon,

[chiron]

two cents

i think you can get whatever you get from a situation/person/lesson

and it depends entirely on the individual.

There is a man called zhi zhi wang who i consider an amazing healer, who from his presence, i've experienced midnblowing healing stuff!

I met him through my teacher...there were people in the class that left halfway through...who didn't stop chattering...who complained about the price.

there are other people who claim that he healed them of being paralysed.

it's 'The same man' and people have been effected in different ways...maybe!! its their choice how they see/listen/percieve..what is happening...
maybe he is a healer with an energetic value that transforms other peoples vibrations to better frequencies.. maybe he is a plant and duping people out of their money!!!

it's your desicion as to what you see. and you are so right to have your personal perspective...you can't be told anything and expected to believe it straight away...

personally i dont care for competitions or lienage...i actually don't place any value in the idea that some special technique has been passed down through hundrds of years..and is somehow.. holy becuase of that. it smells to me the same as patriotism and pride...on the other hand.. it could be a simple game.. playfulness and joy in expressing a skill..who knows...

[Kin Tama]

Good post selva !

The gist of it is not that "someone believed another teacher was better or more suited " as you say.

Could you please explain why shaolin wahnam has took the stand against cfq as you mention other people have not understood this either. Thanks

"Maybe its the other way around or maybe it isn't, everyone's perspective, position and opinions are different."

I tottaly have to agree with the above that you state, unfortunately you still seem to think in spite of this that i am attacking individuals.

So you bring the example of sifu kai, the fact that i stated that if he adopted a stance like that against a kickboxer his leg would get destroyed. The only reason that i used sifu kai as an example is because, that is the video clip in question , if it was any other video clip i would use someone else as an example showing shaolin wahnams techniques.

So if i am attacking anything you could say its shaolin wahnams techniques but if i said this then you would say so i am directly attacking sifu wong kiew kit because he is the head teacher and "endorses" those techniques.

However i havent seen him so i really couldnt do this, hence why i go by the video clips.

Sifu wong kiew kit has been online for a long time, answering questions before that i purchased a few of his books, the taichi book the chi kung book , the shaolin book, as well as an older book i dont think is published anymore a large green soft back which outlines one of the forms. Now for a long time sifu wong kiew kit has been claiming how high level shaolin kung fu is how great it is how much force you can develop etc whilst in the process putting down other styles politely.

So obviously people have high expectations for this , now once the video clips were put online its like opening doors to people and going look this is the proof to back up what ive been saying.

Correct me if i am wrong , but sifu wkk has never tried to be low profile, He charges large sums conducts courses worldwide has a very extensive website has opened an almost franchise like string of schools, of which you do not need 7 years daily training with sifu to be classified as an instructor of. (Again i am not attacking the instructors of shaolin wahnam)
As well as wanting to show the world how great shaolin wahnam will be and that traditional kung fu works , through the warrior project.

Now in spite of all this when the video clips are up on the website and i try to take a look expecting something amazing, i say i am dissapointed and would like to see why you the students and instructors of shaolin wahnam actually do this style , and why You believe its so great.
In all seriousness i havent seen anythign that you couldnt learn in a normal school paying normal fees and have the luxury of training every day and if the "grand master" of the style holds a seminar it will cost around 50-150$


The fact that names pop up are because people represent the school someone says i am just a begginer ok so i say who is good and some one says i am an instructor so i go ok , lets discuss YOUR video , or someone says sifu kai is well reknowned so i say ok , well why does he do it like this why did he change to this style.

And yet i keep on getting pointed at for attacking specific people, it woudl be more constructive if you would like to accuse me for attacking the style and then we could get into a debate about the style which is what i have been trying to do.

[Andrew]

Kin,

Just 2 things:

1. Opinions are just that .... opinions. Everyone is indeed entitled to their own. As an example you say what you see in the video clips is low level, we say it is high level. You say you see simple blocks and punches, we say we see force, form, philosophy and application. On the other hand you say you chose your forum name "Golden Balls" for luck, we say we find the name distasteful and rude.

2. You say how low level the standard of international champions such as Sifu Kai is. How high, then, is your own standard. It must be very high to be able to offer such critique. Could you show us some video material of yourself sparring so that we can compare? That would be an excellent way of validating your claims.

Andrew

[shaolin_mike]

hi wahnam , of course i would like to take a course when the opportunity arises, usually i combine this with a holiday as i am not in the position to go abroad whenever i like as we have quite low wages in this country, so often if i go to the united kingdom to see relatives then i might go to a local club or somewhere where friends train etc, so ofcourse i would be interested to try and combine the two.

I do the same because I cant afford more than 1 holiday a year so I combine it with the course. Being from somewhere geographically close to you I can say that the closest courses are in Italy but I have no idea when the next one will be. Also the Uk is a reasonable distance away and theres gonna be a course there next February.

[barrys]

Kin,

What makes you want to talk about the style?

I could make a couple of guesses, which might of course be totally wrong:

• you might want to talk about it because you would like to try it but reasonably want some points answered to make sure you are making a good decision. If that is the case you have heard that at least one very high level martial artist and competition winner made a decision to use this art. I think you have also heard that a number of people chose this route not only for martial and health reasons but also because it offered a path for spiritual cultivation. If this is the reason, you might now have enough information to make an assessment of whether this way might meet your objectives. Or at least enough to decide whether to give it a try or not.
• Or that might not be the reason. Maybe you like the cut and thrust of discussion. Maybe you like testing yourself and other people in debate. If that is the case then maybe the topic of debate is irrelavent and the process is all.
• Or maybe you are angry at what you percieve to be a low-level art passing itself off as a high-level art. Or maybe you see it is a low-level art and out of compassion want to help us to see that as well. Either way it is down to perceptions. Perceptions change when people percieve something differently. That is about an actual experience. I guess if you want to change perceptions here you would need to find a way of helping us to have this new perception experientially.

Now one, more or none of these might be the reason for you having this discussion. I know for me it would be easier to have the conversation if I understood the objective.

Just to make something clear, I love people who make it passionately clear what they believe. In my experience from my work it is most easy to engage with people helpfully when they are doing this. It has also been very important for me to both learn and do this throughout my life. I have had to learn how to be passionate and at the same time have people carry on wanting to engage with me. For me that has meant being respectful. And for me that has meant things like - if people don't like the way I am talking to them then I find out what is ok. I can then make a decision about whether that is something I can or want to do.

Hope things are well with you,

Barry