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I really believe one hour of Horse stance is the foundation

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  • #16
    Thank you so much my big brother Kai. Zen is whats needed. So happy, to hear this wonderful discussion by my family. I feel privileged.

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    • #17
      Tai Siheng Kai, I wish to add that drilling techniques is one thing, as is hard sparring. But personally my weakness was always the mind and psychological side. Especially in front of a crowd. Stance training/Zen provided me the opportunity to change that. I always had a fear of Ma Bu (poor fitness). Ma Bu has been a boon in that regard.

      Sham.
      Last edited by Shamsher; 15th December 2019, 11:00 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kaijet View Post
        Ma Bu horse stance is one of the secrets of the Shaolin arts. To develop internal force has more the one goal. It can be become a better fighter beside many others. By horse riding alone how you can become a better fighter? Actually you cannot without a proper fighting skill. With the combination of internal force and skilful techniques I am shure you will become one.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Karol View Post
          If one really decides to go for it, why not start 4 am? Even if you start work at 7 there is still plenty of time to practice. Chi kung gives tons of extra energy, which mean the need of sleep can be reduced.
          I would caution against such a simplistic approach. Forcefully depriving the body of sleep weakens it and then piling an increased amount of energy into it via stance training creates an even bigger imbalance.

          Originally posted by Karol View Post
          Chi kung gives tons of extra energy, which mean the need of sleep can be reduced.
          This is not true in my experience. This may be true for others - my point is that people are different.

          For me more training usually means more sleep required. The Iron Wire course was an extreme example - I was sleeping almost all the time outside the course hours and eating very little. Perhaps with enough training the sleep quota will go down but it hasn't happened to me anyway. I have asked many people about this including Sifu but the only answer they were willing to give is "don't force it". There was no specific training offered to achieve it.
          George / Юра
          Shaolin Wahnam England

          gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

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          • #20
            Rather than try to chip in on a subject I don't consider myself to be particularly experienced in, let me just tell a story of my personal experience. Take from that what you may.

            In 2008, in order to prepare myself for a one day kung fu course with Sifu, among other goals I had at the time, I focused on increasing the time spent in daily Golden Bridge practice.

            By about 6 months out from the course, I hit 30 minutes daily, sometimes 40, but usually 30. Let me tell you, if your goal is simply to build internal force, I am not sure if this is the best way to go about it. Yes, it will work. However, it is very time consuming.

            Do you know what the result of my 6 months of 30 minutes a day of Golden Bridge gained me? The week before the Abridged Kung Fu course, I attended two days of 18 Lohan Hands courses with Sifu.

            The Grand Finale was all 18 as a set, starting with Lifting the Sky and ending with Carrying the Moon. My first real taste of merging with the Cosmos happened during the second rep of Carrying the Moon.

            This changed my whole outlook on life, and the qi flow during loosened my legs to such an extent that with the combination of the two, I couldn't even do, or desire to do, 5 minutes of Golden Bridge.

            Yeah, I had enough force to attend the next week's course, and spar with others without being left with welts on my arms. Something others attending the course couldn't say.

            Looking back, I now know that the 30 minutes was forced. Yes, I was relaxed, but I progressed to 30 minutes far too quickly, and by putting the emphasis on time, rather than quality, I locked up energy in the legs, and probably wasted some of that time.

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            • #21
              You are absolutely right, this kind of training should never be forced. One should not start it either right away, it is necessary to prepare the body and to progress gradually under the care of an experienced instructor.
              In my case practice makes me need less sleep and my statement refers to my own case. It was never forced in any way, it came naturally.
              Indeed, this practice takes time, but I enjoy every minute of my Golden Bridge. One full hour its still bit too much for me, and if I practice that for a longer period of time, it leads to overtraining. 40-45 minutes feels in my case just right and its a great beginning of the day.

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              • #22
                This is an excellent thread that is helpful for a lot of people.

                I understand why so many of us become obsessed with force-training, but I think it's a mistake. The twin pillars of Shaolin Kung Fu are force-training and combat application, not force-training and force-training. Yet we frequently discuss how much force-training we should do, and I never see threads like, "I really believe 500 kicks, 500 hand strikes, and 500 fells a day and their counters are the foundation of kung fu".

                Let's flip this question on its head for fun...if you have 1 hour to practice everyday with the aim of being a good kung fu fighter, how would you structure your practice?
                Chris Didyk
                Shaolin Wahnam USA


                Thank You.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Grimlock View Post
                  TLet's flip this question on its head for fun...if you have 1 hour to practice everyday with the aim of being a good kung fu fighter, how would you structure your practice?
                  I like this idea

                  In the early days of my training, I would practice 60-120 minutes every day. Sometimes quite a bit more . Before sharing schedules, maybe it is important to define "force training". Force can be internal force, external force and also skill (amongst others). Many aspects of our training can include development of internal force, skills and other items ... all in one. Some examples would be moving in stances, pattern practice, sequence practice, the art of 100 (or 500 ) kicks, set practice......

                  The four pillars of our training are: Form, Force, Application and Philosophy. Each level of our training contains all four aspects. In my opinion, our personal training generally should too.

                  Sifu Andrew Barnett
                  Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

                  Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
                  Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
                  Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

                  Chi Kung Courses: May 2019 in Landquart CH
                  QEA Discussion Forum: www.qea.ch/forum

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                  • #24
                    If i have 1 hour ( which i don't have at the moment ) ...20 min CK ( mainly force training ) , 30 min KF ( mainly combat application ) and 10 min Zen ( sitting meditation ) ...do all that in 6 harmonies and embodying the already known philosophy ( includes tactics and strategies ) . When i retire from professional work in a few years time , i would love to do 1 hour force training , 1 hour KF , 2 hours sitting meditation

                    Wishing all a happy chinese new year 2020
                    Damian Kissey
                    Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
                    www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

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                    • #25
                      In your case Damian siheng, you will then not retire but advance
                      When one door closes, another one opens.

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                      • #26
                        Brothers, I made a mess of this thread. But I'll say this. Yes one needs to know all the relevant techniques and skills (and drill them, drillers make killers), practice them diligently. But in my experience, internal force makes these techniques and skills alive. Effective.

                        Almost all mma, bjj, wrestlers, sambo, boxers and thai fighters take all sort of drugs. How do i know? I train with them. Sifu has said these drugs are a powrful energy. These performance enhancing drugs are a powerful form of energy in the human body. Don't be foolish, you need power to succeed in fighting. I'm only echoing past and current masters. Why are there weight classes in combat sports?

                        Sifu, Kai Tai Sihing, Damian Sihing and a few other seniors have spent a lot, and i mean a lot of time on force training, why is that? because it works. I will never insult Sifu, Kai, Damian or any seniors (Andrew Sihing). But it is what it is.

                        If you choose not to listen, I wish you good luck. Because you will need it if you fight.

                        Love to you all, it is what it is,

                        Sham.

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                        • #27
                          In response to George Sihings comment about over training, just because you can't handle the amount of force training i can doesn't mean I'm incorrectly training. That's your blockage not mine. I'm not competing with anyone, but when i'm sparring with trained fighters below my weight class (I'm at least 240lbs) and they have more power in there strikes, takedowns and submissions. You better believe I'm interested in developing internal force.

                          More importantly internal force connects me with God. The more the better (as long as its not blocked and treated with reverence and respect, for example I never use it to harm anyone or anything pathetic like that, I really dislike people who abuse spiritual power for sex, money, manipulation and so on.). I choose to send my energy to bless less fortunate people, actually all beings.

                          Karol brother, keep doing what you feel the divine emperor (God) is guiding you to do.

                          I wish much happiness on all of you brothers.
                          Last edited by Shamsher; 26th January 2020, 07:16 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Dear Shaolin Wahnam Family,

                            Thanks all for participating in this thread. Many wonderful answers already.

                            Sam sidai mentioned some comments that I would like to highlight. It could be interesting discussing and knowing your opinions about it.

                            Originally posted by Shamsher View Post
                            "Brothers, I made a mess of this thread. But I'll say this. Yes one needs to know all the relevant techniques and skills (and drill them, drillers make killers), practice them diligently. But in my experience, internal force makes these techniques and skills alive. Effective."
                            I would like to comment on the subject from a different perspective.

                            There are many fighters with little internal force. Yet, they are formidable fighters. They might rely on muscular strength, speed, skills... Yet, they can be very powerful.

                            There are some styles, like for example Tai Chi Chuan and Wing Chung, that are especially suitable for small size people. That doesn't mean that big size people cannot practice them. Of course they can. :-) Those styles do not rely on big size in order to be effective. They have demonstrated over the centuries that being of a small size is not a disadvantage.

                            Why are there weight classes in combat sports?
                            I believe that, in the past, fighters were not separated in weight classes. A fighter was just fighting another fighter irrespective of size or age.

                            Some Kung Fu styles are more external than internal. Yet, they are very effective and many great fighters in the past have demonstrated this.

                            I am not saying with this that internal force is not important. Of course it is. But, how important it is in comparison with other aspects? I leave it here for discussion. :-)

                            Let's say that someone from this school has been practicing Chi Kung for over 20 years and has a lot of internal force but no experience in fighting. How good can he be in a fight?

                            With Love, Care and Shaolin Salute,

                            Santi
                            Last edited by sancrica; 26th January 2020, 10:15 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Hi Shamsher,

                              I don't think you've made a mess of the thread, but I do think you misunderstand some of the points being made. Or maybe I do? Let's seek clarity together.

                              First, though, I apologize for not being clearer in my previous post. I agree that a 1-hour horse stance is a noble aim and good achievement. Also, my comments about force-training vs. combat application training are general, not a specific indictment on your training routine. If you are doing 1-hour of force-training a day and 1-hour of combat applications a day and you're loving the results, great! If you are doing 1-hour of force-training and 10 minutes of combat applications, my warning to have a balanced training applies to you, but of course it's your business whether you heed it or not.

                              I think conflating general training methods (ones that are generally sound for everyone) and individualized training methods (ones that are specific to an individual at his/her current level) is the root of the misunderstanding in this thread.

                              Your stance (ha!) seems to be that your individualized training methods should be general training methods. I don't think anyone has attacked your individualized training methods, just made the case that they are not general training methods.

                              Originally posted by Shamsher View Post
                              Yes one needs to know all the relevant techniques and skills (and drill them, drillers make killers), practice them diligently. But in my experience, internal force makes these techniques and skills alive. Effective.
                              Originally posted by Shamsher View Post
                              Don't be foolish, you need power to succeed in fighting. I'm only echoing past and current masters.
                              I completely agree, but I'm not sure why you're making these points? To me, it seems you are refuting a point that combat applications are important and force-training is not, but I don't see where anyone has made that statement. Or are you saying that kung fu combat applications aren't effective until you achieve a 1-hour horse stance?

                              Originally posted by Shamsher View Post
                              Sifu, Kai Tai Sihing, Damian Sihing and a few other seniors have spent a lot, and i mean a lot of time on force training, why is that? because it works. I will never insult Sifu, Kai, Damian or any seniors (Andrew Sihing). But it is what it is.
                              I agree again. But I have also never heard Sifu, TaiSiheng Kai, Siheng Damian, or any other seniors advise anyone to do a 1-hour horse stance as a general training method. Maybe you or someone else has. I would not be surprised if they advised it as an individualized training method (including as part of specialized training to gain a specific skill), although I would expect such advice would be rare.

                              Originally posted by Shamsher
                              In response to George Sihings comment about over training, just because you can't handle the amount of force training i can doesn't mean I'm incorrectly training. That's your blockage not mine.
                              Maybe I misunderstand, but I don't see where George has told you that you are training incorrectly? He even said that "an hour of Golden Bridge a day would probably be a nice contribution" in reference to training for free-sparring competitions. To me, he has made the point that your and Karol's training is individualized and not general, using his direct experience as evidence.

                              My direct experience is in line with George's. While I have spent a lot of time (especially early on) doing 1 hour or more of force-training, I have never done a 1-hour horse stance. I have also had periods where I need little sleep, and periods where I need a lot. When my boys were infants, I even had a sustained period where I had to back way off of the force-training I wanted to do because I couldn't get the sleep my body wanted in order to recover appropriately.

                              If you or Karol or anyone else is riding a sustained wave of needing less sleep, great! By all means, take advantage. But if you try to force it when your body is telling you otherwise, the correction will eventually come regardless of your will/intent.

                              Despite my description of my force-training above, I have plenty of force for combat. If I enter the ring with an MMA fighter, I may lose, but it won't be because of too little force. It will be because their skill in application and ability to stay relaxed are greater than mine, which is likely given how much they train and spar vs. how much I train and spar. The only way more force will help me in such a scenario is if my internal force is so much greater than my opponent's power that his attacks don't faze me, and I can absorb them until I can land my own attacks. Obviously, that's not something I ever want to count on. For me, force-training is important, but I realize bigger gains in combat efficiency and especially staying relaxed in combat by practicing combat applications, especially for scenarios I find uncomfortable.

                              But that's my individualized analysis. As a counterpoint, Christina made tremendous gains in combat efficiency just by practicing the Flower Set. I tried that approach, but it didn't work for me. It sounds like your experience is also different, and that doing a lot of force-training is benefiting you in your sparring with other fighters (it is awesome you are doing that, by the way). I would be interested in hearing more about this if you'd like to share.


                              Chris Didyk
                              Shaolin Wahnam USA


                              Thank You.

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