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Kung Fu is a "Fake Martial Art"

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  • Kung Fu is a "Fake Martial Art"

    Dear Friends and Family,

    According to this article, Kung Fu, Wing Chun, and Tai Chi Quan, among others, are "Fake Martial Arts" that are ineffective.

    I would say that this headline is just provocative--clickbait--except this is an opinion I have heard more than once.

    How do you counter?


    Yours,


    Charles
    It’s amazing how many martial arts existed for hundreds of years without being called out for being ineffective. These fighting systems simply flew under the radar as practitioners only ever faced off with one another. Troy Taormina-USA TODAY Sports That’s what made the pioneer days of MMA so unique. For hundreds of years the best …
    Charles David Chalmers
    Brunei Darussalam

  • #2
    So on the one hand, this is mostly correct - the way these martial arts are generally taught today is not that of a genuine martial art.

    That said, MMA is not a genuine martial art either - without the safety rules of sport (e.g. no weapons, no multiple opponents, no "forbidden" techniques) it is not so useful.
    George / Юра
    Shaolin Wahnam England

    gate gate pāragate pārasaṁgate bodhi svāhā

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    • #3
      Originally posted by George View Post
      So on the one hand, this is mostly correct - the way these martial arts are generally taught today is not that of a genuine martial art.

      That said, MMA is not a genuine martial art either - without the safety rules of sport (e.g. no weapons, no multiple opponents, no "forbidden" techniques) it is not so useful.

      Hi George,

      It's good as always to hear from you. I must concur with you regarding both you points above. Regarding MMA NOT being a real martial art, the most ironic and obvious thing to note about the videos linked is in the "Wing Chun vs. MMA" in which the MMA player rushes in with his head down for a tackle, dangerously exposing the back of his head for an easy lethal strike. I presume that a strike to the back of the head is illegal in MMA, thus allowing for this move which would be extremely foolish in a real fight.

      Watching MMA it is easy to see many instances of the players exposing themselves in ways that would be laughable in a real fight...


      TLDR: MMA is NOT a real martial art, as it is governed by safety rules.

      Charles David Chalmers
      Brunei Darussalam

      Comment


      • #4
        I and many on here know that kungfu is not a fake martial art. But I have sympathy for those who think that it is. Until I met my first Sifu, I wouldn't say I thought kungfu was fake, but I certainly thought it was nothing compared to boxing, kickboxing or thai boxing. I thought the same about karate, aikido etc, I thought they were no match for boxing. But then, way back before that, I used to think judo, wrestling and jujitsu were no use either! It was only the UFC that proved to me those arts not only worked, but worked against boxing!

        So of course I can absolutely understand those who have not had experiences with kungfu thinking that if it was any good for fighting, then somebody would be using it in the UFC, because I think it is fair to say no one has proved that yet.

        I think the UFC fighters are fantastic, I certainly wouldn't want to pit my kungfu skills against their MMA skills. But then... I boxed for many years and I wouldn't want to pit my boxing skills against a professional boxer either, their skill would overwhelm me. And I suspect I could have spent 10 years doing MMA training, ie Brazilian jujitsu, thai boxing and so forth, but not be on the level that UFC or top MMA people are at either.

        Because I think that, in terms of fighting, it comes down to the person as well, their dedication toward training, their mentality toward fighting and so on. For example if me and BJ Penn (a highly skilled UFC fighter close to my size) had access to the same training resources in MMA when we started training, then each trained for 5 years, he would be way better than me at MMA. But if we both had trained kungfu for 5 years he would be way better than me at that too. The kungfu version of him would no doubt beat the MMA version of me.

        So who knows how good kungfu could be in the hands of some people who dedicated themselves to using it for competition fighting. A problem is that whilst BJJ and other arts are winning in the UFC, then more people gravitate towards them, hence there are a lot more MMA schools within driving distance of me than kungfu schools. But perhaps one day a kungfu exponent will do well in MMA and that might set the ball rolling, when others, en masse, can then believe in kungfu. Perhaps it will be someone from our school via the Warrior Project or the Competition Committee.

        Originally posted by Charles David View Post
        Regarding MMA NOT being a real martial art, the most ironic and obvious thing to note about the videos linked is in the "Wing Chun vs. MMA" in which the MMA player rushes in with his head down for a tackle, dangerously exposing the back of his head for an easy lethal strike. I presume that a strike to the back of the head is illegal in MMA, thus allowing for this move which would be extremely foolish in a real fight.

        Watching MMA it is easy to see many instances of the players exposing themselves in ways that would be laughable in a real fight...
        I used to think a boxer could just knock one of those guys out when they rush in. But I've been persuaded by explanation, watching videos, and a tiny bit of real life experience that because of their timing, it is really hard to catch them on the way in and 9 times out of 10 they get the takedown despite those risks and disadvantages.

        Then again, I watched James Toney (one of the best boxers ever) cross over to UFC to fight Randy Couture (one of the best MMA fighters ever). Couture rushed in and took Toney down early in the fight with a shoot type manoeuvre. He then used wrestling to "ground and pound" the boxer, before finishing him off with a jujitsu lock on the neck, Toney tapped out. I thought, ok, Couture wasn't worried about getting hit with a right hand on his way in. (And I think a boxing right hand requires similar skill to execute as one or two of the proposed kungfu defences to a shoot I've seen).

        However I think watched a great interview with Randy Couture afterward... and he said he absolutely was worried about getting caught with a single strike and being knocked spark out on his way in! Hence rather than a double leg takedown, he went for a single leg, catching Toney round the ankle of his lead leg and taking him down that way. He explained this was because he thought there was too much risk of being knocked out doing the common double leg takedown shoot, he thought he would have to be too upright and too close to Toney's right hand, whereas this way enabled him to go in low and with more distance from the right hand. He was still worried about the risk of being caught with the right hand, but felt whilst it wasn't a sure thing, the odds favoured him.




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        • #5
          I recently read a book called "Part Reptile" by the former UFC fighter Dan Hardy. Dan uses jujitsu, wrestling, thai boxing, ie the standard MMA techniques nowadays, but he started off doing taekwondo.

          However from our point of view, the more interesting part of this story is that part of his martial arts background involved spending a few months studying Shaolin Kungfu in one of the Shaolin Temples in China. Another interesting part to that is that I had heard this before from a student on a Shaolin Wahnam course who had been there with him for some of that time, as I recall - they trained together at some point anyway. I will leave it to that person to elaborate further should they see this thread, assuming they are still training and so forth.

          Two points were most interesting though:
          1. I was expecting Dan Hardy to criticise kungfu, but he spoke of it in positive terms. Also in slightly vague terms to be honest, it is not 100% clear if he thought that other arts were more practical, though he hints at this, or if he just simply found it would be too difficult and take too long to complete the full required training program in kungfu in other to go forwards. A bit of both, was my reading of it. He does say the toughness of his experience there was the making of him.

          2. The other thing he mentioned was that their was some huge kind of heavy weight table, which he and several other instructors wanted to move to create space for working out or sparring etc in a certain room, but it was too heavy. Between them all they could not move it. Then, one of the monks, I think the grandmaster came in, laughed and moved it easily across the room with one hand. I thought Dan was about to say that he thought there was some trick involved, ie it had a secret lock, secret brakes, secret wheels or something, or their was a knack to moving it in a particular direction - as these are all the things which were going through my mind. But Dan pretty much says that he thought it was supernatural and inexplicable.


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          • #6
            In the world of martial arts it seems the winner of the fight is typically the one thought of as correct.
            Shaolin Wahnam USA

            "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

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