"Brown-nosing" in Shaolin Wahnam?

[Emiko H]

Clarity and Precision cutting past the Mist and Fog

Dear Michael,

It is good to connect with you via this forum. I look forward to meeting you in person and crossing hands with you one day.

First of all, thank you for your participation in this thread. I appreciate your comments.

I am going to respond to this post of yours as a way of revealing to everyone what is actually going on.

Dear Sifu Marcus and Kevin,

What is going on here? Are you both still responding to recent clashes with Sifu Stier and perpetuating the recent troubles?

It is vital that we all maintain clarity on this forum. Please consider who is the one who instigated the "recent clashes" on the Shen Men Tao thread.
Let us also acknowledge that Sifu Stier is skillful at employing the guerilla tactic of creating havoc and then waiting for others to intervene and clean up the mess.

Sifu Marcus... your wording is rather provocative.

Again, please be careful with this. Sifu Stier's post in the Shen Men Tao thread is a prime example of "provocative" wording. This post is what has instigated the "clash". Here it is for your perusal below:

To Sifu?Santer and Joko:

It would have been very much appreciated...and genuinely quite refreshing for a change...to see you guys ADD SOMETHING SPECIFIC from YOUR OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE and UNDERSTANDING of the subject to my post on 'Yielding'!!!

Instead...you appear to merely post here in order to pat one another on the back, and to kiss one another's arses...while sucking up to others! Now don't misunderstand me....I love organizational politics as much as the next guy, but that wasn't the topic at hand, was it?

Perhaps there could be a much needed and long overdue 'Brown Nosing Thread' somewhere on the Forum here to fill the gap and meet the need! LOL! What a hoot!

There is nothing neutral about this post. Neither is it respectful nor polite. I doubt that any child would be permitted by any adult to address another person in this manner.

Kevin, you're beating the drum quite loudly to gather opinion against someone with whom you recently got into a bit of a war of tongues.

Actually, I think that Kevin has exercised remarkable clarity in being able to see past Sifu Stier's effective "mist and fog" technique. I would like to commend Kevin on his ability to see past the fog and on having the courage to stand up and say what he thinks.

Now, let us move on to this excellent definition you have given of a certain "phenomenon", Michael.

... part of the phenomenon is that there's a slight increase in intensity among people who are in agreement as they see and hear each other supporting their views: Go team. Go team! GO TEAM!! It gets louder each time, and since the lone dissenter has no team to support him, it puts him in a disadvantageous position ...

This is a fascinating subject indeed. Let us be vigilant that in the very act of expressing this point of view we don't inadvertently point fingers at someone and make him out to be the "lone dissenter".
More specifically, in this case, let us be careful that we don't accidentally join Sifu Stier's "go team" and make Kevin the "lone dissenter".

Let us also remember that Sifu Stier claims to have many allies from whom he has received multitudes of supportive emails. Please see this quote:

...this has been validated in the huge number of private e-mail responses I have received from an incredible variety of people located all over the world who read these posts.

Certainly, Sifu Stier, being a grandmaster, is well able to take care of himself and protect his space. Surely, it is Kevin we must pay respect to for his courageous stance.

Surely, it is also Sifu Santer and Joko who have the right to insist on a clear, distinct apology from Sifu Stier for saying such words as:

...kiss one another's arses...while sucking up to others!

These are not the sorts of words that would even be permissible in grade school. I am genuinely surprised that anyone would criticise Sifu Santer and Kevin for expressing their opinions and asking for Sifu Stier to take proper responsibility for his words.

Here is exactly what Sifu Stier said about Sifu Santer:

I made NO reference by name to anyone in my post, other than to communicate to Sifu Santer that I perceived him to be 'highjacking' the topic to another thread without any response to my post whatsoever...without any personal opinion or contribution to the topic at hand whatsoever....except to imply that 'substance' would be better found "in depth" at the linked article instead. Until such time as I hear otherwise from Sifu Santer on this Forum, I shall continue to perceive his intentions as such.

Instead of apologising for his rude and insulting words and manner, Sifu Stier continues to assert that Sifu Santer had ill intent.

This is unacceptable.

I would like to give a simple example of how unacceptable this is:

Let us say that a person by the name of Duncan invites me and another of his friends, Jeremy, over as guests to his home for tea. If I were to proceed to insult Duncan's family and friends by telling them they were "kissing" each other's "arses" and then imply that they could only participate in the discussion if I deemed that they had something of value to contribute to my topic, wouldn't it be only right for Duncan to insist on a proper apology from me?

Furthermore, if I said that I had nothing but the highest respect for Duncan and his family, but that his child was trying to distract me from my conversation, and that he therefore deserved to be called an "arse kisser" and a "hijacker", would Duncan then not be even further insulted?

If at that time Duncan's other guest, Jeremy, were to stand up and express his opinion that I were rude and should apologise, wouldn't it be true that he were acting appropriately?

In this case, Jeremy represents Kevin, Duncan represents Sifu Santer, and I represent Sifu Stier.

Asserting one's right to receive an apology is a basic mode of conduct that children are taught in kindergarten. Moreover, at the grandmaster's level, claiming that one did not "intend" for his/her words to be taken the wrong way is not an acceptable way of resolving the issue (chaos self-created by the grandmaster). A grandmaster would either have no problems matching his/her intent with skillful action - and therefore avoid creating confusion and disharmony, or, if he/she were to accidentally act in such as way as to mislead someone about his/her intentions, the grandmaster would not hesitate to take responsibility and admit this error. Such is the way of a warrior who is not too proud and has nothing to hide.

Of course, one must not rule out the possibility that it could have been the secret intention of the grandmaster to create disharmony and dissention, in which case, this would be a case of ill intent on the part of Sifu Stier, not of Sifu Santer.

However, because Sifu Stier is a guest on this forum, and because one of our basic tenets is being courteous and polite, we at Shaolin Wahnam are graciously offering Sifu Stier an opportunity to make amends for his intended/unintended insults.

A simple, straight apology from Sifu Stier to Sifu Santer is in order.

Michael, once again, I would like to acknowledge your timely post. It has benefitted me in being able to cut past and reveal the inner workings of the illusion created by Sifu Stier on the "Shaolin Wahnam Institute Discussion Forum > Kungfu > Shen Men Tao" thread.


Best wishes,

Emiko

[chud]

Good post Michael, you make some interesting points.

Peace,

[Emiko H]

Dear Chud,

Would you care to elaborate, please?

Thank you.

Best wishes,

Emiko

[chud]

Dear Chud,

Would you care to elaborate, please?

Thank you.

Best wishes,

Emiko

Hello Emiko, I was just agreeing with his post. Btw, I already replied to you in the Shen Men Tao thread, but I probably should have posted here instead. My apologies.

With respect,

[Emiko H]

Dear Chud,

Thank you. I have also responded to your post there.

It is good that you feel comfortable agreeing with Michael and safe enough to post such a statement here on this forum.

Perhaps Sifu Stier would do well to acknowledge that sometimes there is no need to "elaborate" or "add" something "refreshing" to an exchange, that sometimes what has been said before is already enough, and that a statement of reference, acknowledgment or support from others is all that needs to be expressed.

Genuine acknowledgment is not the same as "brown-nosing".

Respectfully,

Emiko

[Michael Durkin]

Sifu Hsuen asked :

Dear Chud,

Do the hosts of these other kungfu forums tolerate guests who call them "arse kissers"?

And Chud replied

I would have to say yes, I have seen very spirited discussions (putting it lightly) on many other martial arts forums, many much worse than anything here, that manage to stay alive and continue.

Staying alive and continuing is one thing, but tolerating it is another.

Did these other forums tolerate such behaviour? And WHY ?

By this I mean, did they just allow it to continue, or did they repremand such outbursts?

Sifu Stier has acted inappropriately and has not apologised appropriately. If he or anyone else can act the same way, it ruins and sets a bad example for everyone else.

The threads on this forum are alive and continuing, but again, why should such behaviour be tolerated?

[Ray]

Dear friends and Sifu Durkin

By this I mean, did they just allow it to continue, or did they repremand such outbursts?

I am sorry to inform you but most all forums that I have seen including martial arts forums (esp. bullshido.com) often have many immature rants and vulgar insults thrown. I do not know why this is allowed either, but I think our moderators here are excellent and have the courage to step in when they see things going out of hand.

That's why I like this forum so much because I don't feel like I am arguing with a bunch of children (put in a negative sense as in immature teenagers who instead of raising valid points try to holler the otherside to submission)

Be well,

Ray Chang

[Marcus]

Hello Michael (Udel),

What is going on here? Are you both still responding to recent clashes with Sifu Stier and perpetuating the recent troubles? Sifu Marcus, you've got another thread going where you repeatedly refer to Sifu Stier with terms like "shallow." I'm not saying you're right or wrong in that thread when it comes to kungfu, just that your wording is rather provocative.

I'd like to thank my Wahnam sister Emiko for her excellent posts on this thread.

If I may Michael, I'd like to clarify:

1) I responded to this thread, because I disagreed with its implication that Shaolin Wahnam Instructors gang up on those with who have different views. I couldn't let this go unchallanged, especially when history proves that Sifu Stier's responses to those who disagree with him are far worse than anything written by a Shaolin Wahnam instructor. I wanted to make sure that this is on record.

2) I'd like to thank you Michael for sharing your view that the wording on my other thread is "rather provacative" I will do my best to tone it down. But my post is in response to the disrespect shown to myself and the other Shaolin Wahnam instructors. Sifu Stier has brought this on himself by his own actions.

3) I am still waiting for an apology from Sifu Stier, not for his insult to me but for the insult to my Sifu (to avoid unnecessary repeatition please refer to the Shen Man Tao thread for an explanation). I'm sorry if it appears to you that I am "perpetuating the recent troubles", Sifu stier has had plenty of time to address this issue, but has not done so. Would you let an insult to your Sifu go unchallanged?

Believe it or not I strongly adhere to something my father once told me:

"Remember, no matter how thin you slice it, there are always 2 sides".

Right, time for my practice.

Kind regards

Marcus


Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Michael Durkin]

I think our moderators here are excellent and have the courage to step in when they see things going out of hand.

That's why I like this forum so much because I don't feel like I am arguing with a bunch of children

Thank you, Ray, for your comments supporting the moderators of this forum. Don't worry, I don't see your comments as brown nosing

I have seen other forums, and their blatant lack of manners and multitude of insults. You are sadly another person that has also experienced this. But how many times have you experienced such behaviour here ?

We don't have to moderate hardly any peoples posts for language or conduct. It is quite surprising when such occurances happen. Such individuals and their behaviour stand out a mile as it certainly isn't the norm here, unlike other forums where many people are rude.

[Zhang Wuji]

1) I responded to this thread, because I disagreed with its implication that Shaolin Wahnam Instructors gang up on those with who have different views. I couldn't let this go unchallanged, especially when history proves that Sifu Stier's responses to those who disagree with him are far worse than anything written by a Shaolin Wahnam instructor. I wanted to make sure that this is on record.

Hello Marcus

I am really happy to hear from you, especially since it has been some time since i met you at the Special Review course more than a year back.

I think it is appropriate for me to explain why I began this thread. It was not a direct response to Sifu Stier's recent posts, although the closing of the Shen Men Tao thread was the catalyst. While I did not like some of those recent posts, I felt that others had voiced my own views, and there was no need to add more.

This thread was really to explore an issue that I was thinking about for a while (I think it began with the "Kin Tama" thread - how we react to accusations or rude posts that question our methods and teachings.

I certainly had no intention to imply that we gang up on others. I know personally many of the members who have posted in this forum, and I know them well enough to know that they are really nice. I think Michael Udel put it very accurately when he described it as a phenomenon not a conspiracy. We have no ill will in our posts, but any lone person we may be debating with on the other side may not see it that way. I have been engaged in enough arguments in my life to know that people you are arguing with only see the worst of you.

I strongly believe that in addition to the contents of our posts, how we react to rudeness reflects very much our Shaolin training. I do not tolerate rudeness to my Sifu, or people I love and respect. As a small child, I broke the nose of another kid who insulted my mother. As I grow older, I find that I have more options in how I deal with rudeness. Depending on the situation, I can use hard or soft force. My personal way, and I stress, this is my personal way of dealing with nasty posts, is to first respond with a couple of polite and specific questions, rather than a challenge. I have always found that the rude posts tend to attract very good replies from members of the forum, and perhaps as a result, I am quite excited whenever i see one of them.

Genuine acknowledgment is not the same as "brown-nosing".

I love this quote, and, no, it is not brown-nosing either

Just to add something that visitors may not know, and to also answer Sifu Stier's comment about currying favour in group politics. Many of the junior students in Shaolin Wahnam have absolutely no vested interest in currying favour with the seniors and the instructors. I don't train under any instructor (at present) and my fellow student like Joko who lives here in Asia is unlikely to ever train with Marcus far away in England. If we support their views, it is simply because we agree with them. We show respect not because we gain anything from it, but because our Shaolin laws teach us to love our fellow disciples and also because it is plain human decency to respect those more senior in experience and cultivation. And if we do give effusive acknowlegements like "That is a wonderful explanation!", it may either be a sign of sycophancy or surprise, surprise, it could be an expression of genuine gratitude.

When I asked about breath control in Wahnam Taijiquan, both Jeffrey and Andrew responded generously with answers that set off light bulbs in my head. I was most grateful and acknowledged accordingly. (Actually, if i have to count the times that I have been guided by Andrew, Antonius and the other instructors, I would run out of space here) In the same vein, whenever Sifu Stier answers my questions, I thank him profusely. In neither case am I brown-nosing, nor do I expect to score any brownie points. No one is obliged to reply to another's queries on this forum, and when one does, it is an act of generosity, no less.

[Sifu Stier]

Now Contemplating...Still Yielding and Reflecting!

Sifu Stier

[Ray]

Dear Friends,
I don't want to act out of place here but I just wanted to warn everyone emotionally invested in this issue to please not villanize the other party. We are all human beings and we've all done wrong before. I understand the necessity of a firm stance and an apology but if we try to discredit the other party or make them sound like they are manipulative and conniving than I feel that we are not showing the respect that we feel we deserve on receiving.

Just because the other party has "done worse" does not mean that we should use such tactics.

Best,

Ray Chang

[Michael Udel]

resolving the issue

Dear Sifu Emiko and Sifu Marcus,

Thanks to you both for your very thoughtful and respectful posts in response to what I wrote. To clarify, the premise of my post was that I thought Sifu Anthony had resolved the issue, but further reading has shown that the issue is unresolved.

Would you let an insult to your Sifu go unchallanged?

Sifu Marcus, I can't question your right to defend the honor of Sifu Wong. I don't know how he is involved in this problem, but that may be something I don't understand about kungfu culture. Thanks for responding to me in such detail.

Thanks to Zhang Wuji for clarifying the point about ganging up. I am not implying that Shaolin Wahnam Instructors gang up on forum members intentionally, or even unintentionally, but from the perspective of someone in the minority, that's probably how it feels.

I hope it will be helpful for me to say that I truly believe everyone on this forum has good intentions. The current issue has made it obvious that the normal status here is profoundly good and elevating.

Best wishes,
Michael