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  • Parinirvana

    Hello everyone!

    Long after Buddha entered Parinirvana he saved Sitaigung Ho Fatt Nam. (https://shaolin.org/general-2/legacy...att-nam08.html)
    I thought after Parinirvana Enlightened beings do not come back or cannot come back. Obviously Enlightened beings can come back.
    Why do some buddhists believe it is not possible to come back from parinirvana to samsara?

    Greetings
    Bernhard
    "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
    "Goodness begets goodness." - Sigung

  • #2
    imhO :

    Why ? Because , in their ignorance , they think samsara is not part of the Whole .

    And "believe " is not the same as "know".

    Damian Kissey
    Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
    www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Sipak!

      Does that also mean that a being in Samsara and Nirvana lives forever?
      "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
      "Goodness begets goodness." - Sigung

      Comment


      • #4
        ,.. i do not know Sir , but i believe ( in the broadest context ) the answer is "yes"
        Damian Kissey
        Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
        www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

        Comment


        • #5
          that's great :-)
          "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
          "Goodness begets goodness." - Sigung

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear Bernhard and Dr. Damian,

            thank you for the link and question and answers.

            To add some points to the question of samsara vs. nirvana and whether one can come back from parinirvana to samsara:

            a) Some say traditionally that Samsara is Nirvana and vice versa, anyway
            b) Some say you can leave Samsara through 'buddhist practise' (let's call it this) right here right now and so be in Nirvana, and this can and will fluctuate back and forth, anyway
            c) How big is the difference to the fact of birth or incarnation into this world on this planet? Or referring to Sichangung Ho Fatt Nam, when he incarnated here the first time or say at birth was this that different or where did he come from?
            d) It's said there are many worlds that could fall in the categories of Hells, Limbos and Heavens. And even Heavens would 'just' be part of phenomenal reality just as 'this world and planet'. There is ultimate reality. Could you be here on this planet in hell and in limbo and in heaven and in ultimate reality, also and already? Apart from this, it's said there are multidimensional beings, stretching over many dimensions and/or being able to travel different dimensions.
            e) Did Sichangung go to heaven? Or is this meant to give an idea? How do you know? It's said if a non-physical being appears in your perception (and it's said he does, for example at courses) the direction whence one comes if you recognize it early on, tells one where one is coming from. But even this would not say, whether someone is always only in that dimension, nor why he/she is there. Of course, that's if you can perceive this and know the directions.
            f) Some Bodhisattvas are said to stay in hell until all beings are liberated, which probably does not mean they are only in hell dimensions all of the time. But it says also, that 'spiritually advanced' or 'good' beings are not necessarily only in 'heaven worlds' all of the time.

            With Kung Fu Salute,
            Michael
            Last edited by MichaelS; 26th April 2020, 06:03 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Just some more:

              g) Sichangung Ho Fatt Nam was to my knowledge not Buddhist, he was Daoist. Why did he see Buddha and this in a phenomenal-world heaven to sent him back? What is the significance, if any, why wasn't it Guan Yin, a Daoist Immortal, Jesus etc.?
              h) Which Buddha was it as there are many in different aeons, and why would THE Buddha (were everyone is buddha already etc.) be perceived as a specific person in a specific realm?
              i) Some Zen Teachers told their students, that if Buddha appears in a meditation they should immediately kill him. That happened to me once and I decided to follow this advice and started to proceed; what then happened I don't like to tell here. But the point 'in buddhism' is challenging things and experiencing it for yourself; if you go by believe you make it a religion. But also, going by this approach towards buddha appearances, what significance does it have?

              With Kung Fu Salute,
              Michael

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear Michael

                To most oft your questions i have no answer.

                As far as I know Sitaigung Ho was both a Zen and a Taoist master.

                Personally I think to kill a Buddha just means to let go of the idea of the Buddha. The Buddha said avoid all evil, do good and cultivate the mind. As killing is mostly evil in this realm I personally think one should not kill a buddha. I think the use of the word kill is bad and ignorant or maybe a koan.

                Greetings
                Bernhard
                "No matter what you do, you must be clear in your conscience." - Sitaigung Ho
                "Goodness begets goodness." - Sigung

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear Bernhard,

                  thank you for your thoughts. Asking questions is for me a means of investigation and of staying alert and awake. It's not about learning fixed answers as in a chatechism which makes it religion. So, not having answers is just wonderful.

                  I did not invent the theme and language use. Google does give some results, with background info and explanations, for example:

                  https://www.quora.com/What-does-if-y...-kill-him-mean

                  https://www.learnreligions.com/kill-the-buddha-449940

                  "If you meet the Buddha, kill him." this famous quote is attributed to Linji Yixuan (also spelled Lin-chi I-hsuan, d. 866), one of the most prominent masters of Zen history.'

                  'In Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind (Weatherhill, 1970), Shunryu Suzuki Roshi said...'

                  So, it originated from a famous zen master (founder of Rinzai zen) and is a widely known theme, also for expl. Prof. Suzuki commented on it.

                  When Sichangung Ho Fatt Nam was a Zen master then he stood in the tradition of zen, but also as a Kung Fu master etc. he had to deal with the theme of 'killing'.

                  The famous Kung Fu masters of the past from from Ng Mui to Chi Sin to Bak Mei were professionals in this.

                  But that's not to say, this is right or wrong as an absolute, personally I find that such past masters (whether it's actual or mythological history) are glamorized too uncritically.

                  But I did not google it before, and having experienced something in meditation, I would not say it's about a logical answer or just an insight one hears and learns.

                  Thank you very much,

                  With Kung Fu Salute,

                  Michael
                  Last edited by MichaelS; 30th April 2020, 01:34 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear Bernhard,

                    this may also show some additional insights in relation to your original question here: https://shaolin.org/general-2/legacy...att-nam11.html

                    'Did Sigung Ho achieve Enlightenment?'

                    'I believe my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam did not attain Enlightenment when he left this world. It was not because he did not have the ability to attain Enlightenment but because he did not want to. He preferred to return to heaven to be the personal attendant of Guan Yin Bodh Satt, the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion, as Golden Boy.'

                    'My sifu had a special mission to reincarnate as Ho Fatt Nam in our phenomenal world. Besides saving countless people and giving invaluable spiritual lessons, he helped us to preserve the legacy of the Shaolin arts.'

                    'Enlightenment, with a capital E as used here, means perfect Enlightenment, i.e. the perfect merging with the Great Void without any differentiation.'

                    'If we use enlightenment with a small e, as many people use the term, my sifu was highly enlightened. He had cosmic wisdom, and knew exactly where he came from and where he would return to.'


                    With Kung Fu Salute,

                    Michael
                    Last edited by MichaelS; 30th April 2020, 02:57 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dear Bernhard,

                      and another point. Apart from that you wrote - pls see my last post - 'Enlightened beings' with a capital E and the Grandmaster uses it with a small e for Sichangung Ho Fatt Nam:

                      If you read the passage from the link you gave again:

                      'Once my sifu had a fatal accident, and he actually died. But the Buddha saved and revived him. The Buddha asked my sifu to return to our phenomenal world to help people and save lives. Skeptics are of course free not to believe such amazing stories, but these stories were personally told to me by my sifu himself, whom I know never lied. After completing his mission on earth, my sifu happily returned to heaven.'

                      So, in this situation were 'the Buddha saved and revived him' there is no mention of Sichangung Ho Fatt Nam being in heaven or in nirvana etc. Why would he need being saved there?

                      So, i don't know also, but maybe it was the Buddha and not Guan Yin that he saw, because it was not in heaven...and he needed be saved to 'return and complete his mission'. Next he's said to have 'happily returned to heaven' (from were he was said to have incarnated at birth - pls compare post No. 10).

                      But of course, being 'saved and revived' can mean restoring him to 'physical life' here on earth, to continue and complete his mission. Like, he had showed up at home too early...'Hello, I'm back.'..'Mission complete?'...'Well, not yet, but...'

                      Or, he was still 'somewhere inbetween'...not yet in heaven, not on earth in his body, not in hell. Like, 'Cross-roads at four gates: where do you want to go...back to heaven...back to earth...? Have you completed for what you incarnated here? If not, may I ask you to choose 'earth' and continue? And then see you next time...because you only live twice...'

                      With kung-fuy Salute,

                      Michael
                      Last edited by MichaelS; 30th April 2020, 04:55 PM.

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