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Special Shaolin-Taiqiquan Course , Sabah , Malaysia , 12-18th October 2011

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  • #91
    Force Training Framework

    Dear Brothers and Sisters

    It might be useful to discuss some aspects of the course for our own benefits. Everyone can participate, including those not at the course.

    How about we start with the general force training framework.

    Form-Force-Flow
    and
    Form-Flow-Force

    Do you have a preference?
    What are the advantages of each?
    How do they relate to each set?
    Other comments and questions....
    少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

    Facebook

    "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

    -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

    Comment


    • #92
      Flow-Form-Flow-Force-Flow

      Dear Mark Siheng

      Thank you for mentioning this.

      I was training for the last two years with Form-Flow-Force idea that I first encountered two years ago in the Blue Mountain in a discussion with Simon Siheng and I was sure that this is how it must be.

      However, because I started to re-think due to your input in this thread I have discovered a completely owerwhelming truth for myself. Maybe this is just a result of my improved skills and continuous training.

      The Flow is THE key element of everything, therefore it must be the beginning, the end and the means.

      The perfect Form comes from the Flow, and the Force is the result of the Flow. And the Flow is also the binding element of the Forms.

      I hope that this makes sence. At least fo me it was a revelation :-)

      I had the most beautiful and powerful chi flow during the training yesterday that I ever experienced. I am glad that I took the next step. Perhaps this is just a postponed result of the Special Taijiquan Course in Sabah :-D
      .•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`°irene°´¯`•.¸¸. ´¯`•.

      ---------------------------------------
      “I wish I could show you when you are lonely or in darkness the astonishing light of your own being.”
      Hafiz

      Comment


      • #93
        Form-Force-Flow
        and
        Form-Flow-Force

        Do you have a preference?
        What are the advantages of each?
        How do they relate to each set?
        Other comments and questions....
        Dear Mark Brother,
        Thanks for starting this thread. Both methods give certain advantages as you mentioned.

        I love the form-force-flow aspect as it was the more dominant part of my training at the beginning of my Kung Fu development.

        With the correct form one build up sufficient force and let this force flow.

        In our basic syllabus it's that we train the form and the body mechanics first. It may give a practitioner the chance to spend enough time on that. Once one has the sufficient form and the correct body mechanics for example with the 8 basic patterns in level one, he she may transform that into the Lohan asks the Way Set, getting the right form, body mechanics into a flowing manner.

        Or if one trains the stances as force training, he may continue with moving in stances, getting the force into flow.

        In the Set training this approach may give a practitioner the opportunity to work on the coordination of his breath control.

        In a Set One may use force in different rhyms. With changing the intervals of using, exploding force one may work on his speed. For example the Lohan asks the Way Set one may perform with 8 breaths, 4 breaths or 2 breaths. Changing that, one gains with two breath on speed compared to using 8 breaths.

        Funnily as indirect result, the flow and the smoothness within the different pattern also improves when changing the interval of breaths.

        This approach relates to many of our Sets. In many Sets at the beginning of it, we start with a force training and using this force later to transform into movement. In the Triple Stretch Set and Flower Set this approach may appear very obvious.

        Generally said the form force flow method is represented in any Shaolin Kung Fu Set.

        The form force flow aspect is a different approach and in my opinion the result of a further development and cristallisation by the Great Shang Sang Feng. The force and speed here is a result of the energy flow and is directed and controlled by mind. Interesstingly the breath control has not as much importance as in the form force flow method.

        It may be interesting to note that while the internal styles like Taijiquan, Pakuaquan and Xinyiquan highlight this approach, it is also found in advanced Kung Fu like the Dragon Strengh Set.

        Personally I think both methods are very useful and not to be neglected. In Wahnam we are in the lucky and priviledged position to be able to train both ways.
        "From formless to form, from form to formless"

        26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
        Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

        Website: www.enerqi.ch

        Comment


        • #94
          While I have not taken the opportunity to be trained in the form-force-flow method (as far as I know), I have been lucky enough to be introduced to the form-flow-force method, first at the Two Finger Zen course and just this past weekend when I attended my monthly Baguazhang class. My Baguazhang sifu continuously stresses smooth but forceful movement. While he hasn't specifically told me to think of qi flow, I have overheard him telling my senior brothers to "allow the qi to flow; qi flows, you're alive!"

          The closest I've come to exposure to a form-force-flow method is with external training in Kaze Arashi Ryu aiki jujutsu; we'd tense our muscles and let out explosive shouts when doing sets, seeking to make each individual movement powerful. Then we would focus on making a continuous series of powerful movements. I was often sore and out of breath after doing sets like that, so I'm very grateful to Sifu and Sigung for introducing me to internal training.
          I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Luo Lang View Post
            This approach relates to many of our Sets. In many Sets at the beginning of it, we start with a force training and using this force later to transform into movement. In the Triple Stretch Set and Flower Set this approach may appear very obvious.
            Thank you for this! I hadn't thought of how the Force method and Flow method overlap to this extent!

            Originally posted by Luo Lang View Post
            Personally I think both methods are very useful and not to be neglected. In Wahnam we are in the lucky and priviledged position to be able to train both ways.
            Interesting! I agree that both methods are excellent but I view the Flow method as an improvement of the Force method, both in force training and set/application work.

            In force training because my results in the year I've emphasized the Flow method have been greater than in those I emphasized the Force method.

            In set/application work because I asked Sigung about the Breath method vs. the Flow method at this year's UK Summer Camp, and he said that the Flow method is an improvement of the Breath method, and there is no need to use the Breath method if you know the Flow method. We directly experienced the improvements at both Winter and Summer Camp (and definitely the Special course).

            Even at the Special course with the Triple Stretch Set, which Sigung describes in his web pages as the set that pioneered the Force method, we did everything Flow method! (And it was lovely!)

            The most powerful effect of embracing the Flow method has been on my daily life. My ability to flow through life has improved tremendously. Whereas in the past if I ran into an obstacle I would often try to power (i.e. Force method) my way through it by default, I am now much more able to detach from it and flow around it or increase the flow to overwhelm it depending on the circumstances. And that ability is increasing every day!

            As far as advantages/disadvantages, the Force method is more accessible initially as it requires less faith and feels more immediately powerful. But it also easy to do it wrongly by using too much muscular tension.

            The Flow method initially requires a lot of faith that the power will be there, especially if you don't already have a fair amount of internal force. If you don't learn it correctly, you won't build much force.

            Both methods can be used to develop tremendous internal force, but the Flow method's balance of flow and force feels better to me than the Force method's. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other people who feel the opposite!
            Chris Didyk
            Shaolin Wahnam USA


            Thank You.

            Comment


            • #96
              Dear Chris,
              Thanks for your inspiring post!

              My statements of the force method is based on years of training until Sifu has improved his teaching skills up to an new dimention. My comments are based on maybe the position of a Sifu telling my students how important it is to have a strong fundament.

              Funnily the first time beeing introduced into the flow method was actually my first Taijiquan course with Sifu in Spain. Much later then I got this wow effect at the Triple Stretch, Flower, Praying Mantis
              and Immortals courses,which I proudly say have contributed a lot to a kind of Kung Fu elightment. 

              I agree that the flow method brings a lot of benefits and also lots of advantages like for example no need for breath coordination in sets or sequences. Chris you may be happy to hear that the flow method may
              lead to cosmic breathing.

               I also agree that its very suitable and useful for daily life, an aspect I also realised that I would greatly benefit from.

              I love your statement that it certainly needs trust or faith to apply it with the confidence that tge energy will be there meaning will do the needed things. 

              Those of my students beeing also introduced into the flow method by Sifu told me that after they spent time again on the force method the flow method would be improved. Its a practical feedback which lead me to the following opinion:

              We in Wahnam still have the horizontal and vertical approach. I think thats my opinion using both methods will enhance the development.

              Then Sifu went in Switzerland very deep into sharing Zhang San Feng's development. you are right that this flow method he developed is another improvement of spirit and energy training meaning its a special force training method.

              What was good for Zhang San Feng's needs is certainly good for our needs too:-)

              I am very grateful to the Venerable Zhang San Feng and of course to Sifu: the Wudang Taijiquan
              and Drunken Immortals Sets certaily have changed my life tremendously.

              The flow method allthough I had always great respect for Zhang San Feng, also contributed a lot that I respect Taijiquan as a great Martial Art more than ever.

              Chris, I trust you enjoy the Triple Stretch Set:-)
              "From formless to form, from form to formless"

              26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
              Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

              Website: www.enerqi.ch

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Luo Lang View Post
                Those of my students beeing also introduced into the flow method by Sifu told me that after they spent time again on the force method the flow method would be improved. Its a practical feedback which lead me to the following opinion:

                We in Wahnam still have the horizontal and vertical approach. I think thats my opinion using both methods will enhance the development.
                Thank you, Roland, this is valuable (and expected ) feedback from your students! The progression appears to be like so:

                Let's take a beginner student who doesn't have much internal force and has just learned One Finger Shooting Zen. Regardless of whether she chooses the Flow method or the Force method, she must start with emphasis on correct form. From there, if she follows the Force method, she will emphasize the force stage and if she follows the Flow method, she will emphasize the flow stage.

                It's interesting that she has this choice, but that her practice would not be cost-effective if she tried to jump right to focusing on the final progressions of either the Force or Flow methods. For instance, it isn't cost effective for her to go straight to emphasizing the flow stage of the Force method because in the Force method, you develop flow by mobilizing the great internal force you have been building in the force stage. As the student hasn't built much internal force, there isn't much to mobilize.

                It also isn't cost-effective for her to go straight to emphasizing the force stage of the Flow method because in the Flow method, you do the force stage by focusing all of the chi you have built up in the flow stage into a smaller stream. As the student hasn't built up a great flow of chi, there isn't much to condense.

                After the student practices both methods for some time (or the second and third stages of one method for a longer time), the methods blur together. When focusing on flow, whether from the Force or Flow method, the student will flow very quickly as is the trademark of the Flow method. When focusing on force, again regardless of method, the student will feel a tremendous focused stream of force through the arm and hand as is the trademark of the Force method.

                In my experience, practicing the Flow method for some time changes the Force method to be more "internal", where, when I focus on force, I naturally do so as in the third stage of the Flow method.

                Maybe the progression continues to evolve from there...I'll let you know if I find out! Or maybe someone else already has?

                Oh, and yes, I am very much enjoying the Triple Stretch! I love it more everyday! It's yet another thing that Sigung was right about!
                Chris Didyk
                Shaolin Wahnam USA


                Thank You.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
                  While I have not taken the opportunity to be trained in the form-force-flow method (as far as I know), I have been lucky enough to be introduced to the form-flow-force method, first at the Two Finger Zen course and just this past weekend when I attended my monthly Baguazhang class. My Baguazhang sifu continuously stresses smooth but forceful movement. While he hasn't specifically told me to think of qi flow, I have overheard him telling my senior brothers to "allow the qi to flow; qi flows, you're alive!"

                  The closest I've come to exposure to a form-force-flow method is with external training in Kaze Arashi Ryu aiki jujutsu; we'd tense our muscles and let out explosive shouts when doing sets, seeking to make each individual movement powerful. Then we would focus on making a continuous series of powerful movements. I was often sore and out of breath after doing sets like that, so I'm very grateful to Sifu and Sigung for introducing me to internal training.
                  Hi Frederick,

                  Good timing and spacing on attending the Two Finger Zen course! As Roland said, the Flow method will very nicely augment your Baguazhang practice.

                  The Force method in our school is quite different from the external training you describe!
                  Chris Didyk
                  Shaolin Wahnam USA


                  Thank You.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Dear Chris,
                    Thanks for your very beneficial comments. I enjoyed reading very much.

                    I agree with you that no matter which method one chooses to train, she should not try to skip one step.

                    Interestingly and its always worth mentioning it over and over, both methods share the form aspect as the very important fundament of all further development.
                    "From formless to form, from form to formless"

                    26.08.17-28.08.17: Qi Gong Festival with 6 courses in Bern:
                    Qiflow-Triple Stretch Method-12 Sinewmetamorphisis-Bone Marrow Cleansing-Zen Mind in Qi Gong

                    Website: www.enerqi.ch

                    Comment


                    • Super nice! We're benefiting a lot!

                      I believe we are richer because we know and can apply both methods. The Force method has enhanced our Flow method, and the Flow method enhances our Force method.

                      And we are richer because we can share our training experiences like at the Shaolin Temple in the past
                      少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

                      Facebook

                      "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

                      -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

                      Comment


                      • Stance Training

                        Dear Brothers and Sisters,

                        One great thing we've noticed at the recent courses with Sifu is that stance training is different. I wouldn't notice any external changes in what we're learning, but safe to say that it feels internally different and great.

                        I recall Roland Siheng saying after the Triple Stretch course, 'My stance training is totally different now.'

                        So, what's so different?

                        What role does it play in our force training compared to what is found in the beginning of many of the specialized sets?

                        What benefits do you find in your Kung Fu and your daily life due to this update in stance training?

                        Other comments..
                        少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

                        Facebook

                        "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

                        -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

                        Comment


                        • Hi Mark,

                          Thank you for initiating such interesting discussions and thanks to Irene, Chris and Roland for sharing your insights into Form-Flow-Force, Form-Force-Flow.

                          There's no doubt that my stance training has also changed since the course in Sabah. To be honest, I've just been enjoying it as part of the general and complete upgrade Sifu gave me over three weeks in Sabah, Penang and Australia.

                          If I think about what the actual difference is, I'd say that my stance training now has a built in Cosmic Shower. Even though Sifu has mentioned before that when our stances are correct, we become the link between Heaven and Earth, I think that I really received the transmission in Sabah.

                          The effects of the Special Course in Sabah were greatly enhanced by the regional courses in Melbourne and Jervis Bay, where we had the great combination of Generating Energy Flow, Massaging Internal Organs, Internal Force and Cosmic Shower.

                          Quite amazing, really
                          Jeffrey Segal

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