An example of a fake Dim Make/Empty Force Master

[DarkCosmoz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI&search=dim%20mak

In the beginning, you'll see that this master's students are affected by his dim mak and empty force. When Fox News was still skeptical of the results, they had the master try it on one of their reporters. Of course, it did not work.

[yeniseri]

the taste of tea is that!

Dark Cosmos,

Was it the master who was the fake, or the Empty Force method, or both?
Just arsking!

[chris3212]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs8mblcgTsk&mode=related&search=dim%20mak

[DarkCosmoz]

Was it the master who was the fake, or the Empty Force method, or both?

The master.

[yeniseri]

agreed to the max

Still standing /posture holding (as zhanzhuang/wujizhuang/taijizhuang/etc) are excecllent ways to give 'energy' to what are called neijaquan.
It can even help so named 'external' styles though we can say external and internal relate to levels of practice regardless of art /style.

[DarkCosmoz]

Hey Yeniseri,

Still standing /posture holding (as zhanzhuang/wujizhuang/taijizhuang/etc) are excecllent ways to give 'energy' to what are called neijaquan.
It can even help so named 'external' styles though we can say external and internal relate to levels of practice regardless of art /style.

What does this have to do with empty force?

[yeniseri]

Test all sources, not some

My experience with what may be labelled "empty force" begins with wujizhuang, spiralling gong, hunyuan gong and similar methods.
Still standing or holding posture has usually been the backbone/root of the recent term 'kong jing'.

It is known by many names so you may choose whcih one you like.

Please. if you know of any system that does not use these as lian gong (foundation practice), I would be happy to find out!
Thanks

[Ray]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
"Masters" like that discredit everyone
It makes people believe that all empty force is a hoax.

Best,

Ray

[Xia]

In my opinion, there is no *empty force* as such, The only *real* empty force, in my view, is when you *feint* and make an opponent move in repsonse - football payers can do it - boxers and so on.

I am very open minded, and have had many amazing experiences outside of scientific description, but in terms of martial arts, there is no internal force, and no empty force as far as I am concerned. I recognize that that is a controversial view here though - it is only my opinion.


If it is in doubt as to whether genuine, high level kung fu experts from mainland China dismiss empty force, please refer to this article:

http://www.yiquan.com/v3/en/file/en018.htm

These are considered amongst the highest level fighting experts.

X

[Antonius]

Dear Xia,

I am very open minded, and have had many amazing experiences outside of scientific description, but in terms of martial arts, there is no internal force, and no empty force as far as I am concerned. I recognize that that is a controversial view here though - it is only my opinion.

I'm glad to hear that you have an open mind. Your opinion regarding internal force is the norm. Most people, even those with 20-30 years of experience in internal martial arts, don't believe in internal force, unless you have the experience to make them meaningful.

Actually, it's refreshing to just hear someone come out and say it straight. I'm a straight shooter, and I respect the same in others. What frustrates me is people trying to explain away internal force in mundane terms, like body mechanics. What they describe is body mechanics, not internal force.

Internal force, like love, is something that must be experienced in order to be understood. If you've never been in love, then romantic poetry will seem trite. But if you've been in love, or if you are in love, then it will be meaningful. The same is true of internal force. Words on a computer screen are just words on a computer screen.

Empty force is another issue. Personally, I believe that it is possible, based on what I've seen and experienced. However, if someone does not even believe in internal force, then empty force is simply too far-fetched to believe. It's like asking someone who doesn't believe in airplanes to suddenly believe in the space shuttle.

Internal force does not require that kind of faith. It just requires correct learning, and correct practice. If you read threads like this one, and also this one here, you'll see a recent example of a student who could feel internal force within days of learing from Sifu. Of course, to develop solid power, it will take years of dedicated practice. But if you can feel the power within 1 day of practicing, imagine what you'll feel after 1 year of practice.

This kind of result is the norm in our school, Shaolin Wahnam. The above thread is just one example of something that I've seen happen with dozens of people every year for years. Some people think that we are being arrogant to talk like this, but as Matt (aka drop360) realizes, we're not.

Actually, we're trying to help! We are happy to share our secrets and help those who have yet to truly discover the beauty of internal force -- including those from other schools. This kind of sharing was unthinkable in the past. Of course, people must sincerely want our help, and they must also show the proper attitude in order to receive it. Matt is a good example. He was skeptical at first, but he was respectful and sincere, and we were happy to share our secrets with him and his kung fu school.

Warm regards,

[forestofsouls]

In my opinion, there is no *empty force* as such, The only *real* empty force, in my view, is when you *feint* and make an opponent move in repsonse - football payers can do it - boxers and so on.

I am very open minded, and have had many amazing experiences outside of scientific description, but in terms of martial arts, there is no internal force, and no empty force as far as I am concerned. I recognize that that is a controversial view here though - it is only my opinion.


If it is in doubt as to whether genuine, high level kung fu experts from mainland China dismiss empty force, please refer to this article:

http://www.yiquan.com/v3/en/file/en018.htm

These are considered amongst the highest level fighting experts.

X

Many people hold that the Communist Government has successfully suppressed most of the internal arts from mainland China (at least publicly), along with Taoism, Buddhism, and many other spiritual arts/traditions (or at least drove it into hiding) so I would not be surprised to hear this. Master Waysun Liao and Robert Peng in the U.S. often demonstrate their internal force to skeptics. As the others on this board say, you really have to taste it to believe it, but once you do, it's undeniable. Even worse, you learn you've been missing out for a long time.

[Matt F.]

Siheng Anthony (if I may call you that), thank you so much for your very kind words. It's true, I was skeptical but open to the idea of internal force.

In the past I had switched back and forth between "chi is real" and "chi is just a term used to described body mechanics". Before finding Sifu's books, I was firmly in the second frame of thought. It seemed reasonable, and my experience up until that point seemed to prove it. However, now my experience tells me that the first mind set is true, and is more than reasonable.

Though some of the accounts in Sifu's books seem like they came straight off of a movie screen, I now have no reason to not believe they are true. After meeting Sifu and taking a regional course, it is very easy to tell that he has no ulterior motives or hidden agendas when he's teaching. I've met and taken courses with other "masters" that are always dangling a carrot in front of your nose, promising a great future if you train with them. I later found out they were just trying to pull me away from my style because they had something against it as a whole. With Sifu, this is clearly not the case. I think he teaches for the good of Kung Fu and, as cheesy as it may sound, for the good of mankind. It's obvious that teaching makes him feel wonderful. But I get the feeling that most everything makes him feel wonderful.

I'm rambling a bit... If you don't believe in internal force, no big deal. If you believe in it, and have experienced it then you know. If you believe in it, and haven't experienced it, take a course with Sifu. I know everyone says that, but they say it because it's true.

I hope everyone that reads this has an awesome day!

-Matt

[Xia]

Dear Xia,

I'm glad to hear that you have an open mind. Your opinion regarding internal force is the norm.

I have found a lot of people do believe in it - but, obviously, as rational beings we should always keep an open minded scepticism about anyhting that seems unlikely, until it we are shown otherwise.

Most people, even those with 20-30 years of experience in internal martial arts, don't believe in internal force, unless you have the experience to make them meaningful.

Well, ok. If people are saying *Yes, this really works* then I don't just dismiss that. However, *experience* is a very movable word. I have had experience, and access, to CMA.

Actually, it's refreshing to just hear someone come out and say it straight.

Well good! I have an article I could put up, if you are interested? It's very controversial though - I don't want to offend you.

Also, I don't believe that there are any *internal* or *external* martial arts - only internal and external methods of training - nothing to do with energy, or types of movement - *ducks*...

I'm a straight shooter, and I respect the same in others.

Good for you! So do I!

What frustrates me is people trying to explain away internal force in mundane terms, like body mechanics. What they describe is body mechanics, not internal force.

Or, are you describing body mechanics as internal force? Is it just different ways of explaining the same thing? Only, *internal force* implies something supernatural, to my mind. When in fact, it IS body mechanics - in my view - it's just that body mechanics extends a bit beyond just Western physiology. Still, it's not *qi* that generate power - or any *internal force* - only *total body energy* - in my view.

Internal force, like love, is something that must be experienced in order to be understood. If you've never been in love, then romantic poetry will seem trite. But if you've been in love, or if you are in love, then it will be meaningful. The same is true of internal force. Words on a computer screen are just words on a computer screen.

This is true! However, I probalby practice very similat methods to you - standing pole, taiji style exercises, push hands, fa li - I even feel many amazing sensations. But it is my body that produces them all. I know what fa li feels like.

Empty force is another issue. Personally, I believe that it is possible, based on what I've seen and experienced. However, if someone does not even believe in internal force, then empty force is simply too far-fetched to believe. It's like asking someone who doesn't believe in airplanes to suddenly believe in the space shuttle.

Well, I think empty force does not exist like that. No one can move you excpet by control of mind in some way - not in a psychic way, just in a willingness way. I go as far as to say I do not believe any person alive can move me with empty force.

Internal force does not require that kind of faith. It just requires correct learning, and correct practice. If you read threads like this one, and also this one here, you'll see a recent example of a student who could feel internal force within days of learing from Sifu. Of course, to develop solid power, it will take years of dedicated practice. But if you can feel the power within 1 day of practicing, imagine what you'll feel after 1 year of practice.

For me, I have to feel it - I have to see it... doubting Thomas and all that.

This kind of result is the norm in our school, Shaolin Wahnam. The above thread is just one example of something that I've seen happen with dozens of people every year for years. Some people think that we are being arrogant to talk like this, but as Matt (aka drop360) realizes, we're not.

Actually, we're trying to help! We are happy to share our secrets and help those who have yet to truly discover the beauty of internal force -- including those from other schools. This kind of sharing was unthinkable in the past. Of course, people must sincerely want our help, and they must also show the proper attitude in order to receive it. Matt is a good example. He was skeptical at first, but he was respectful and sincere, and we were happy to share our secrets with him and his kung fu school.

Warm regards,

I also have the most open attitude to everythign that I know. It's only opinions! An aspect of what I do is to say that it doesn't exist, and also to explain what I think is really happening. The Yiquan article above insists that there is no empty force or other superstitious aspect to powerful martial arts - so, they say no, you say yes - but neither is being disrespectful - just different views.

X

[Xia]

Many people hold that the Communist Government has successfully suppressed most of the internal arts from mainland China (at least publicly), along with Taoism, Buddhism, and many other spiritual arts/traditions (or at least drove it into hiding) so I would not be surprised to hear this.

I think you have to be very careful and sure when saying that - I mean, you really have to know the facts. Of course, massive abuse and repression took place under Communism. However, all of the famous styles survived - and the famous families as well. Thing is, those styles are still there - and they are practiced just as they have been for centruries - that's the truth. Just check youtube for trad kung fu vids - there are many.

I feel that what you have said is often used as a means of disresepcting the martial arts level pf people from China - that's a mistake in my view. I even remember Wong Kiew Kit saying something about the mainland still having the highest level people. You simply can not assert that people like the Chen family, or the famous Yiquan masters don't maintain China's martial art. And that's only to name a tiny few. You can not just dismiss those people in that way.

Master Waysun Liao and Robert Peng in the U.S. often demonstrate their internal force to skeptics. As the others on this board say, you really have to taste it to believe it, but once you do, it's undeniable. Even worse, you learn you've been missing out for a long time.

Well, feeling is believing!

X

[Antonius]

Or, are you describing body mechanics as internal force? Is it just different ways of explaining the same thing?

I don't have time at the moment to get into this in depth, but no, we are definitely not talking about the same thing. We are not on the same page, as evidenced by statements like this:

Still, it's not *qi* that generate power - or any *internal force* - only *total body energy* - in my view.

Statements like this reveal your lack of experience with qi and internal force. What you will likely find difficult, or perhaps impossible, to accept is that students on this forum with less than a year of total training have experienced something that you have not.

Opinions are welcome, and you have been respectful here so far. No one is asking you to believe anything based on words on a computer screen. However, since you say that you are open minded, I would suggest that you look logically at the following:

Many of us were previously in your situation. We have experienced what you describe. However, you cannot say the same. You have not experienced what we describe. For example, you have not experienced the feeling of channeling qi to your palm, or tapping qi from the cosmos. Those descriptions are straightforward, and mean exactly what they say.

Regarding your statement above, I disagree, and I do it based on my direct experience. "Total body energy" is just another way to describe body mechanics. This is not internal force. For example, the internal force in my forearms has nothing to do with body mechanics. Similarly, when my sihing, Kai, takes full-power TKD kicks to his body without harm, this has nothing to do with body mechnics. In both cases, a golden sheath of qi protects us -- something that you have no experience of.

As you said so well, feeling is believing. Many, many people here have felt the things that I describe.