The Generation of Internal Power

[DarkCosmoz]

Hi all,

I found an interesting site: http://www.plumflower.com/who_are_we.htm

On the site:

In an internal martial art, the power is generated not for the most part with an isolated muscle group (as in the short initial or setup strikes of the external art) or with the momentum of a large swing, but the power is instead generated in the same way one would push a heavy bookshelf: you round your back and push with your legs using your arms as a means of transferring the legs' power to the object you want to affect...... In fact, if one can apply the power with the speed and the contact time of a slap then the tremendous bookshelf-pushing power remains in the object struck, just as a slap leaves the sting in the object slapped; this is the famous 'shock strike' or 'short power' of the internal martial arts lineage holders.... The short power can rupture organs, while at the same time appearing to bystanders as not very forceful due to the lack of large swinging strokes. This is the source of the mystery surrounding the arts of Xing Yi, Ba Gua Zhang, and Tai Chi as practiced for combat.

This is the view point of internal force as seen in my school and in some other internal schools that my friends are in. I understand that from the viewpoint of Shaolin-Wahnam, it is chi that is shot from our body or dan tian into the opponent, which disrupts his/her energy field.

I would like to hear some opinions about this, if feasible. Thanks in advanced.


-Stephen

Namo Guan Shi Yin Pu Sa

[KungFuJoe]

Hey Stephen,

Not sure that I can comment of the chi kung aspects of this, but my Yang form teacher has been adjusting all of my techniques so that they have less "snap" and more fluidity body weight behind them. It's exactly what you describe.

I imagine this is better for flow of internal force, but I don't really know. It is somewhat counter-intuitive to the more muscular ways of throwing techniques.

Joe

[DarkCosmoz]

Not sure that I can comment of the chi kung aspects of this, but my Yang form teacher has been adjusting all of my techniques so that they have less "snap" and more fluidity body weight behind them. It's exactly what you describe.

Very interesting Joe, thank you.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Stephen,

This description of internal power is one that is given by many who in my opinion have never experienced internal force.

Some things spring instantly to mind, one is that in our school one can explode internal force without ones feet on the ground and thus there is no leg power involved what so ever. I have also had internal force demonstrated on me from a person standing normally without using their legs or stance at all.

Internal force can be demonstrated just by a touch, if some one is skillful, and thus it cannot be compared to a slap impact generated from the legs.

Also when one is skillful an exponent can strike through objects using internal force (see brick breaking videos etc on Sigung's web site) which someone certainly cannot do using the principles of a slap that stings.

Internal force can be used to heal from a distance, which I have personally experienced, and once again this is certainly not possible with a slap from leg power!

All the best

[KungFuJoe]

Are you studying Tai Chi now Stephen?

Joe

[DarkCosmoz]

Thank you for the great informatioon J-Say.

Are you studying Tai Chi now Stephen?

Yup. Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang.

[KungFuJoe]

Yup. Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang.

I love it.

Honestly, I'm also moving towards the philosophy of all three. My views on these have changed since I met my Tai Chi Chuan teacher. I no longer think that Shaolin Kung-Fu is more demanding, more versatile or more effective than Wudang Kung-Fu like Tai Chi Chuan. In fact my preference has gradually become for Wudang kung-fu.

But I am beginning to truly see the benefit of learning more than one Neija. They reinforce eachother and expand on eachother. I'm moving towards the practice of multiple Neija, Tai Chi Chuan and Pakua in particular, but maybe soon Xingyiquan too. Glad to hear you're on the same path.

Joe

[DarkCosmoz]

But I am beginning to truly see the benefit of learning more than one Neija. They reinforce eachother and expand on eachother. I'm moving towards the practice of multiple Neija, Tai Chi Chuan and Pakua in particular, but maybe soon Xingyiquan too. Glad to hear you're on the same path.

Thanks Joe! The reason why we learn all three is because my Sifu's sifu's sifu was none other than Sun Lu Tang himself.

[Michael Udel]

Serendipity revisited?

Kung Fu Joe,

Last I recall, your Tai Chi Chuan teacher is someone you met by accident, in a laundromat, was it? Is this still the same man? If so, it sounds like things are going well.

Care to give us an impression of your teacher, such as is he American, Chinese, or another nationality? Would you call him strict, severe, casual, or something else? Well, I'm just curious about this sort of thing. Thanks in advance.

Dear DarkComoz,
Don't want to hijack your thread with my questions for Kung Fu Joe. I'd compare what it says on the plumflower website to some things Sifu Stier has posted. He talks about coordinating the external physical with internal power, and it sounds very different from the quote you posted. I don't have these kinds of abilities, but I agree with J-Say. No matter how you slice it, moving bookshelfs as described is about muscular, external power. Combining it with good timing and fast movements is what boxers do, not internal martial artists. You can watch footage of greats like Muhammed Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson and see knockout punches that were relatively "short" and extremely fast. Again, I believe this is external power and not the hallmark of internal martial arts.

Best wishes,
Michael

[qiflow]

Hi all,

I found an interesting site: http://www.plumflower.com/who_are_we.htm

On the site:


This is the view point of internal force as seen in my school and in some other internal schools that my friends are in. I understand that from the viewpoint of Shaolin-Wahnam, it is chi that is shot from our body or dan tian into the opponent, which disrupts his/her energy field.

I would like to hear some opinions about this, if feasible. Thanks in advanced.


-Stephen

Namo Guan Shi Yin Pu Sa

Take this from me with a grain of salt because I have not developed any of these skills yet (until I am in a location where I can train in taiji), but what they are talking about is peng jin, which is the foundational jin in taiji, and a key to it's internal strength. Chen Fa-Ke called taijiquan 'peng jin quan'. Here is some more information:

http://www.taiji-qigong.de/info/articles/peng_faq.php

http://www.chenzhonghua.com/Articles/Chen%20On%20Peng.htm

This is coming from Chen and Yang lineage holders.

A key point from the second link is:

"The person who does taiji feels nothing. So when you feel something it means you are on the path of doing taiji, but you are not there yet. If you are there, there is nothing. When you do taiji, or when you do peng, you don’t know it, you don’t feel the expansion. Your opponent will feel it."

From what I have read on it, peng is sort of a 'springy' ground connection, but it is not simply leaning on your back foot.

http://www.taiji-qigong.de/info/articles/jumin_pj_en.html

I don't think one can fully understand it until they have felt it and developed it somewhat.

Now jin seems from what I have read to be the basic aspect of internal strength in taiji, but there is also qi. Qi can be launched out of the hands in any martial art, so I am sure taiji is no exception. When you hear about people getting sick from taiji strikes, it probably comes from either this or dim mak, the hitting of certain acupoints.

Granted this material is pretty taiji specific but I bet there is some similarity.

Another issue in the whole understanding of this is the confusion between jin, or power, and jing, or essence from oriental medicine. They are not the same.

Again, I wish I knew more about this from direct experience, but this is what I have found from doing research. Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

[DarkCosmoz]

Dear DarkComoz,
Don't want to hijack your thread with my questions for Kung Fu Joe. I'd compare what it says on the plumflower website to some things Sifu Stier has posted. He talks about coordinating the external physical with internal power, and it sounds very different from the quote you posted. I don't have these kinds of abilities, but I agree with J-Say. No matter how you slice it, moving bookshelfs as described is about muscular, external power. Combining it with good timing and fast movements is what boxers do, not internal martial artists. You can watch footage of greats like Muhammed Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson and see knockout punches that were relatively "short" and extremely fast. Again, I believe this is external power and not the hallmark of internal martial arts.

Thank you Michael. I agree with you. Although some of the instructors in my class say something similar to the quote mentioned above, I felt my Sifu's power. He is soft and hard when attacking, and the feeling he emits into my body feels like electricity. My bones also feel as if it has been rattled.

Hi qiflow,

"The person who does taiji feels nothing. So when you feel something it means you are on the path of doing taiji, but you are not there yet. If you are there, there is nothing. When you do taiji, or when you do peng, you don’t know it, you don’t feel the expansion. Your opponent will feel it."

Actually, I agree with this quote. Antonius also said something similar in another thread. Beginners often feel various qi sensations (such as me). However, later you become so used to this feeling that you don't feel it anymore and probably think all the power's gone away. In fact, it is still there and stronger than ever.

[Chiahua]

Also important to note as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, it is possible to develop internal force purely with external methods. I can't remember offhand who was an example of this (Guo Yu Cheng?). However, I think most Wing Chun exponents develop "inch force" which is a form of internal force, despite most of the schools using purely external, "water-buffalo" training.
The big difference being the ability to use the internal force for things other than punches, such as circulating it and using it to heal others.
The excerpt is similar to some of the explanations I've received from other sifus, and they certainly had internal power. It's really hard to judge exactly what they are talking about, since they may be limited in their capacity to put the idea into words, and words may be limited in their capacity to put the idea into words.

[qiflow]

Also important to note as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, it is possible to develop internal force purely with external methods. I can't remember offhand who was an example of this (Guo Yu Cheng?).

Do you mean this man?:

http://www.harmoniousfist.com/kuyucheung.html

[beggarsu]

From the time I spent at Sifu Wing Lam's Kwoon (who learned his Northern Shaolin in the Ku Yu Cheung lineage), that tradition still utilizes internal methods, although there methods might be "harder" than say, Wahnam School's. There methods include zhan zhuang in the Golden Bridge stance, except how Lam Sai Weng demonstrates it in that illustration in one of Sifu Wong's QAs, http://shaolin.org/images-3/answers/ans99a/bridge.jpg . Then they have various qigong methods for emphasizing the palms, like Big Windmill in Wahnam School. So they actually do a lot of energy flow for developing internal force like Wahnam School does, except instead of Wahnam, where an ability like breaking bricks manifests as coincidence in the goal of training internal force, brick breaking is something trained for session by session in that school.

[Antonius]

Beggarsu -- nice to have a student of Sifu Wing Lam here. I'd be curious to hear more about their training.

it is possible to develop internal force purely with external methods

Actually, I'm not sure about that. But this is largely a matter of semantics. What is internal? What is external?

Did Gu Ru Zhang's (is that the Mandarin?) use only external methods? From what I've read in Sifu Wing Lam's Iron Palm book, I'd say no. Their method for Iron Palm is external in that it involves hitting bag. But there is breathing involved. And a stance. And auxiliary exercises. And most importantly -- there is mind involved.

If you hit a bag hundreds of times a day while sitting in a stance and controlling your breath, you should enter into a meditative state of mind. This was my experience when I did Iron Fist for a few months.

So in the end, I'm not sure that internal and external are as clear cut as we would normally think.