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  • Chen-style Taijiquan

    I just watched a DVD on Chen Taijquan over the weekend. For some strange reason, I got really inspired to see what the form looked like. I have read books on Chen-style for a while now, but never got round to finding out what it looked like.

    There appears to be some bad blood between the Yang family and Chen-style Taijiquan. For example, back in the 1930s, Tang Hao et al published a thesis saying that Taijiquan was created by Chen Wangting. To the Yang family, this was almost blasphemous since it denied the existence of the Grand Patriach Zhang Sanfeng. Also, Yang historians found that the Chen family had apparently faked a marital arts genealogy to substantiate their claims of origin. References include Dan Docherty 'The Complete Tai Chi CHuan", ZHao Bin "Genuine Yang Taijiquan" (in Chinese).

    Just to clarify, Yang-style practitioners never denied that their art came from Chen village, but they are adamant that Yang Luchan learnt his art from Chen Changxing. The rest of the Chen family practised a different art, a hard style, and they in fact ostrasised Chen Changxing for teaching Taijiquan.

    ANyway, maybe because of that, I never got down to understanding Chen-style Taijquan. When I watched the DVD, I was blown away. The form demonstrated by Chen Zhenglei was simply fantastic. When I tried one of the standing exercises, more out of fun and curiosity that anything else, the feeling of qi circulating in a spiral manner in my body, from my hands to my toes was my strongest ever when practising a Taijiquan form.

    I could go on for a while but I have one conclusion to make: If i had to choose a style all over again AND had a competent instructor for that style, I would have chosen Chen Taijiquan. Coming from a Yang stylist, I think that is quite an admission
    百德以孝为先
    Persevere in correct practice

  • #2
    Well, as long as you enjoy what you are currently practicing, that's most important!

    Comment


    • #3
      hi all,

      This subject of the different Tai Chi Chuan styles is interesting for me, thanks Wuji for starting this thread, I'd like to add my two cents now

      Both the Chen and Yang families agree that Yang Luchan (1799-1872) learned at the Chen Village for some time (for about 18-20 years), but there is some confusion as to what Yang Luchan had learned there from his teacher Chen Chanxin. What I mean here is that did Yang learn a soft martial art similar to the Yang style that we see now, or was it different. I believe that Chen Chanxin (1771-1853) taught Yang Luchan a style very similar to the "Old Frame" Chen Tai Chi Chuan that is taught till this day. The old frame Chen Style was the creation of the chen village masters, they combined their external family martial art called Pao Chui with the internal martial art that they learned from a Taoist visitor (Jiang Fa?) who came to their village. Though the chen family do not agree with the story about the visitor, and claim that Tai Chi Chuan was created by their 9th generation ancestor Chen Wanting, about 500 years ago.

      After many years of practice, Yang Luchan perfected his skills and reached a very high level in the Chen family art. He also changed what he had learned, improving or adapting his new style to different needs and situations of his time. For example, while Yang Luchan and his son Yang Panhou (1837-1892) were teaching at the Imperial Palace, they taught a style that is different than what they actually practiced. There are a few reasons for that, I'm not sure which is more correct, maybe both are, one reason was that Yang did not want to teach his personal art to "outsiders" (the Manchu). The second reason is that the guards wore long robes, so he changed the form to adapt to their wardrobe.

      There are many accounts of students seeing Yang Luchan, and his two sons Yang Panhou and Yang Jianhou (1839-1917) practice a smaller frame fast form, this form or forms were the invention of the Yang family. But it was not developed from nothing, it was developed and derived from the Chen style that Yang Luchan had mastered after many years of hard practice. The small frame was not taught to many people, even though the Yang family had many students, there are also some reasons for that decision.

      Yang Jianhou's oldest son, Yang Shaohou (1862-1930), taught the style that he learned from his uncle Panhou. He did not teach the modified Imperial Palace version, but he taught his original family style. Shaohou was a very strict teacher, he routinely beat his students and not many of them stayed to learn from him. There were only very few students who stayed to learn from him for many years. His younger brother Yang Chengfu (1883-1936) was different in that he had many students, but the style he taught was not the same as his older brother's style. After Yang Jianhou died, Yang Chengfu changed the style so that it will be easier for people to learn, the emphasis was changed from martial to health. So this form was less martial, and it was a larger frame, suiting Yang Chengfu's body shape at that time. The sad part is that after Yang Shaohou died, his few students did not go to learn under Yang Chengfu, as they did not want to learn the new "health" style. Another reason was that they were said to be higher skilled than him. Because of that, they were written out of the Yang family lineage. Here are the names of a few of them:

      Hsiung Yang-Ho (1886-1984)
      Wu Tu-Nan (1885-1989)
      Chen Pan-Lin (1892-1966)
      Chang Yiu-Chun (1899-1986)

      I think most of the Tai Chi Chuan styles practiced these days are a bit watered down in a way or another, so learning the Chen style which may be the least watered down version is a good choice for someone who wants to practice "real" Tai Chi Chuan. Sifu believes that the Chen Style may be the best choice for someone who wants to learn Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art, and that's one big reason why I think so too

      The old Yang Luchan style would be a very good choice, maybe even better than the Chen style, but how many people do we know that teach that? It is very rare, and probably the few masters who know this style do not want to teach it to you (me). Sifu Stier has kindly said here a few times on the forum that he learned an old Yang fast form, I wonder if it has any similarity with say the Cannon Fist form from the Chen style.

      P.S. Wuji, I share your interest in learning the Chen style, and I hope to someday be able to learn and practice this style.

      Respectfully,
      MoMo.
      "If you can walk one mile, you can walk a hundred miles"
      Sigung Ho Fatt Nam

      Comment


      • #4
        The Chen connection to Yang Lu-Chan..........

        Yang Lu-Chan, Founder of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan, lived in the Chen Family Village (Chen-Chia-Kou) from his youth until he was 41 years of age. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in either the Chen or Yang families has ever denied Yang Lu-Chan's close association with the Chens, especially with his Master, Chen Chang-Hsing, also known as Chen Yun-Ting (1771-1853). Yang was initially Chen Chang-Hsing's houseby in his early teen years, and later became his student, but it is said that their relationship was more like a father-son relationship than a teacher-student relationship. Sifu Chen taught Yang the Old Frame Style (Lao-Chia), Cannon Fist, Weapon Forms, Tui-Shou, Chinese Herbal Medicine, etc. Yang's sons, Pan-Hou and Chien-Hou, also learned this art from their father, and briefly from Chen Chang-Hsing for a few short years prior to Chen's death. Chen Chang-Hsing was not only a great Master in his own right, but a great Teacher whose instruction helped create possibly the greatest Tai-Chi Chuan Master in history, namely Yang Lu-Chan!

        Chen Chang-Hsing was never an outcast, or ostracized by the Chen family, but because he learned his art from an 'outsider', Sifu Chiang-Fa, the Family Elders ruled that he could only teach this art, Tai-Chi Chuan, not the older Chen Style Wu-Shu Kung-Fu. As time passed, other Chen family members modified Chang-Hsing's Old Frame Style to create two other distinct versions of Chen Tai-Chi Chuan.

        When Yang Lu-Chan left the Chen Village for Peking/Beijing, Sifu Chen told Yang not to teach the Chen Style to the general public as a professional teacher because the Chen's wanted to keep their Tai-Chi Chuan as a private, proprietary, 'closed door' Family Style. This is the reason that Yang initially created his own style, modeled after the practice principles of Chen Style and following the sequential order of the Chen Old Frame Set mostly, but with some changes and modifications. This became formalized as the 'Imperial Long Form Set' when Yang was requested/ordered to teach the Emperor's son.

        This also lead to Yang's appointment as the Director and Head Instructor of the 'Divine Skills Battallion' in the Forbidden City, i.e. the Imperial Bodyguard and Security Forces for the Forbidden City. Yang's son, Pan-Hou, took over in this capacity after Lu-Chan's death. The Yang's quickly became known as China's most famous martial art family, since their Tai-Chi Chuan was peerless, and nobody of any other style ever defeated them!

        The first two generations of Yang Family Tai-Chi Chuan were known to have created, practiced, and taught at least three different Form Sets prior to the creation of third generation Yang Cheng-Fu's 'Improved Large Frame Set' which has become the Yang Family's Standard Set in recent decades. One of these older Sets is the Combined Style Set which blends the Small Frame, Small Circle, Fast Form elements of the Chen Cannon Fist, the Wu/Hao Form Set, and the Yang Style Forms in one routine. This Set is traditionally taught as an advanced Form Set after mastery of the Imperial Long Form Set, and is a very martial application routine with energy projection (Fa-Ching) priorities. Very few people have learned this Fast Set ever, and of those who have been taught it, very few perform it properly or at a high level of ability.
        http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi,
          It's always interesting to learn a bit of the history of Tai Chi.

          Originally posted by sifustier
          The Yang's quickly became known as China's most famous martial art family, since their Tai-Chi Chuan was peerless, and nobody of any other style ever defeated them!
          Not even the Chens could defeat them?


          According to Wei Shuren, author of "The True Teachings of Yang Jianhou's Secret Yang Style Taijiquan", Wang Chonglu was taught a secret style by Yang JianHou. Could this be the secret style which Yang Luchan and his sons practiced?

          Thanks.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Secret Yang Style!

            The 'Secret Style', if any, is in my humble opinion the 'Small Frame, Small Circle, Fast Form Set'. Among the various Form Sets known to have been created, practiced and taught by the first and second generations of the Yang Family, the 'Fast Form Set' is certainly and by far the least known and least often taught or even demonstrated of all the Sets to date.

            Supreme efforts were exerted to make the 'Imperial Long Form Set' a superior exercise which would produce superior training results for the Imperial Prince, since any disappointment in anything presented to the Royals could be a personal disaster even for the Yangs. It proved to be a superb style which pleased the Prince immensely, endearing the Yangs to him, and resulting in Yang Lu-Chan's appointment as Head of the 'Divine Skills Battallion'. This is the Set which Sifu Yang taught to the Imperial Bodyguard as well. After the fall of the Imperial Dynasty system of government, it is the Form Set that was most widely taught by the Yangs in their 'public' Tai-Chi classes. It is estimated that a greater number of people have been taught Yang's Imperial Long Form 108 Set than any other single Tai-Chi Chuan Form Set.

            The 'Small Frame Set', in contrast, is probably the least widely taught Tai-Chi Chuan Form Set of all the different Sets of every Tai-Chi Style. This is understandable as this Set represents the epitome of the Yang Family Tai-chi Chuan genius. It combines the best ideas and the best methods of the best Masters of the era in which it was created. The cumulative genius and insights of Chen Chang-Hsing, Yang Lu-Chan, Wu Yi-Hsiang, Chen Ching-Ping (Wu's Teacher), and the Yang brothers, Pan-Hou and Chien-Hou, were all blended together to create this 'Reserved Set'. It was compiled for personal, 'closed door' only, private family training practice, and was never intended to be a Set which would be taught at the public group classes. And in fact, since it combines the 'stylistic interpretation' of several separate styles within one routine, it is not a Form Set that a beginner to advanced level practitioner would even be capable of performing correctly. It is truly a 'Master Set', created and designed by Masters for practice by Masters of Master Grade methods and material! It is a humbling routine to learn, but one which leaves those who know it in awe of the total expertise and mastery that went into its creation!

            I can't prove beyond any doubt that this 'Small Frame Fast Form Set' is the one referred to by some as the 'Secret Style', but if any Yang Style Form Set should be called as such, this one has my vote.
            http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MoMoJuice
              Yang Jianhou's oldest son, Yang Shaohou (1862-1930), taught the style that he learned from his uncle Panhou. He did not teach the modified Imperial Palace version, but he taught his original family style. Shaohou was a very strict teacher, he routinely beat his students and not many of them stayed to learn from him. There were only very few students who stayed to learn from him for many years. His younger brother Yang Chengfu (1883-1936) was different in that he had many students, but the style he taught was not the same as his older brother's style. After Yang Jianhou died, Yang Chengfu changed the style so that it will be easier for people to learn, the emphasis was changed from martial to health. So this form was less martial, and it was a larger frame, suiting Yang Chengfu's body shape at that time. The sad part is that after Yang Shaohou died, his few students did not go to learn under Yang Chengfu, as they did not want to learn the new "health" style. Another reason was that they were said to be higher skilled than him. Because of that, they were written out of the Yang family lineage. Here are the names of a few of them:

              Hsiung Yang-Ho (1886-1984)
              Wu Tu-Nan (1885-1989)
              Chen Pan-Lin (1892-1966)
              Chang Yiu-Chun (1899-1986)

              I think most of the Tai Chi Chuan styles practiced these days are a bit watered down in a way or another, so learning the Chen style which may be the least watered down version is a good choice for someone who wants to practice "real" Tai Chi Chuan. Sifu believes that the Chen Style may be the best choice for someone who wants to learn Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art, and that's one big reason why I think so too
              HI Mo Mo

              Glad you share the same sentiments. I really hope we get to meet soon.

              On Chang Yiu-Chun, I assume you are referring to Master Erle Montaigue's teacher. Well, according to him, "Chang Yiu Chun" may not have been his teacher's real name and to date, no one can authenticate this particular lineage. This is not to say I doubt what Master Montaigue is saying but as he states on his website, their relationship was not what we have commonly come to expect of a traditional martial arts school or family. From his own accounts on his website, they met by chance in Australia and simply trained together informally until Chang left just like that.

              I have not been able to find out exactly who this cousin of Yang Shaohou is, but that is not surprising. Any teacher can have students other students do not know about. My great-grandmaster Wu Tunan only recorded the fellow students he himself knew.

              Back to the discussion on Chen Taijiquan.

              I think StierSifu has given an accurate narration of the history, in particular, stating that Chen Changxing was prohibited from teaching the Chen family style. One intriguing question that can be posed at this point is whether Yang Luchan used Chen Taijiquan in actual combat even if he taught his own version?

              [Just a note - I am not using titles for all these masters because I don't know how to translate them. In Chinese, I would have said "Yang gong Luchan" etc, but for this post, I will be more informal]

              According to Wu Tunan (see "Taijiquan zhi yan jiu" 1982, Commercial Press Hong Kong (in Chinese), Yang Luchan and family used his own created fast form around the time he became the Commander of the SHenji Ying (Divine Skill Battalion). Presumably before that, he was using what his teacher taught him while he was working out his own style. He did however formulate
              a Yang slow form while he was teaching in Yongnian, and by today's standards is already pretty fast. The Imperial Long form, now the Wu2 style was created when he was in Beijing, and later became the Wu Jianquan style.

              It is believed that Yang Banhou went the "fajing" route and Yang Jianhou the "sticking" route, and "neutralising" route was taken by Quanyou. These classifications overlap since obviously a great Taijiquan master can fajing, stick to and neutralise incoming force. What i refer to is the absolute mastery of these types of jing4. Yang Luchan achieved this, and presumably CHen Changxing too. The example I have read about of highest level of fajing is the lingkong jing (empty force) exerted over a great distance (much like the Marvellous Fist and Strike-Across Space Palm and One Finger-Zen Sifu talks about in his books and website, not to mention teach), and for "sticking" the ability to hold the opponent like you have superglue on your hands without any of the usual qinna techniques of gripping, even from a short distance. I cannot verify these stories but I was at this dinner discussion of my Taijiquan seniors and they were sharing the stories orally transmitted to them.

              I have written on the fast form elsewhere on the forum, but as far as my materials can establish, it exemplifies the lingkong jing aspect, and comes down from Yang Luchan to Yang Banhou to Yang Shaohou. According to a song of secrets (gejue) in Wu Tunan's book, they were the only ones who knew this skill. Does that mean that Yang Jianhou and Yang Chengfu did not learn this lingkong jing and the fast form?

              I recently came across the original form used by Yang Jianhou known as Lao Liulu (Old 6 routines), transmitted to Wang Yongquan, in a set of 7 books that describes in excruciating detail the training methods. The physcial postures are the same as the Wu style Long form but the transitional movements are all different. By a stroke of coincidence, I saw a demonstration of this form by one of Wang Yongquan's descendants recently and indeed there was this ethereal quality about the form that did not resemble the other forms i had seen.

              Just a disclaimer - just about everything I have written here (except the para immediately above) is second-hand, so please take it with a pinch of salt. I am only writing these things so that someone more qualified can correct any errors I have committed in my research.
              百德以孝为先
              Persevere in correct practice

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Zhang Wuji
                I recently came across the original form used by Yang Jianhou known as Lao Liulu (Old 6 routines), transmitted to Wang Yongquan, in a set of 7 books that describes in excruciating detail the training methods. The physcial postures are the same as the Wu style Long form but the transitional movements are all different. By a stroke of coincidence, I saw a demonstration of this form by one of Wang Yongquan's descendants recently and indeed there was this ethereal quality about the form that did not resemble the other forms i had seen.
                Wang Yongquan happens to be the son of Wang Chonglu and the teacher of Wei Shuren. Incidentally, there are another two Wangs, Wang Yennien and Wang Dianchen who claims to have inherited secret Yang transmissions. I had seen a demonstration by Wang Yennien and Wang Dianchen. Their styles were not the same, so it looks like the Yangs passed different secret styles to different people.

                The Yangs must have been a secretive lot
                Last edited by beausimon; 18 April 2005, 09:49 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zhang Wuji
                  . When I watched the DVD, I was blown away. The form demonstrated by Chen Zhenglei was simply fantastic.
                  Yes! I got Chen Zhenglei VCD at the mall in Pulau Pinang during our trips there in April when attending Sifu's Chikung Course. And have you seen Chen XiaoWang's performance? Excellent! I saw the video-clips when he was in his 20s and then again in more recent years.

                  I did not have privelege of learning from a master or instructor, I learned both Chen and Yang style forms from video, books, and articles on websites.

                  Originally posted by Zhang Wuji
                  .When I tried one of the standing exercises, more out of fun and curiosity that anything else, the feeling of qi circulating in a spiral manner in my body, from my hands to my toes was my strongest ever when practising a Taijiquan form.
                  I have practiced Yang-style forms for about 30 months, and just 4 months ago I started practicing Chen-style forms. I got the same feeling, the spiral energy is manifested clearer at Chen-style. Only after practicing Chen-style forms I could find also the spiral energy at Yang-style, somewhat subtler. Another realization is that now I can perform the Yang style better after learning and practicing the Chen-style.

                  But this of course is supported by my Chikung training with Sifu. One sure thing, I learned the Chen-style forms in much much shorter time compared when I learned the Yang style earlier.

                  Please note that for now I can only perform both styles as solo sets, not as combat training yet. Thanks to Sifu's training, the sets are now practiced as chikung training, and believe it or not, the level of intensity of the Taiji form practice as chikung can be varied at will. When I have much time and I want to practice longer, I just lower the intensity level in order not to overtrain.

                  Joko
                  开心 好运气
                  kai xin... .......hao yunqi... - Sifu's speech, April 2005
                  open heart... good chi flow... good luck ...
                  ------------------------------------------------------------
                  Have we not opened up thy heart ...? (The Reading, 94:1)
                  ------------------------------------------------------------
                  Be joyful, ..and share your joy with others -(Anand Krishna)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by joko
                    and believe it or not, the level of intensity of the Taiji form practice as chikung can be varied at will. When I have much time and I want to practice longer, I just lower the intensity level in order not to overtrain.
                    Joko, you are indeed very wise!
                    It took me a while to understand this

                    When I have some time I will start a thread about this.
                    Hubert Razack
                    www.shaolinwahnam.fr
                    www.sourireducoeur.fr

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The old Yang Luchan style would be a very good choice, maybe even better than the Chen style, but how many people do we know that teach that?
                      Erle Montaigue.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Erle's demo of the 3rd segment of the YLC form if you are curious

                        http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3323

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ever Heard This Before?

                          Apparently......I am not only Invisible here......but some folks don't remember what I posted previously either!

                          I have repeatedly stated on this and other Forum Threads that the 'Old Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set' is taught in the Shen Men Tao System as part of the Standard Curriculum.

                          And yet...regular contributors to these Threads continue to post the opinion that nobody teaches this older Set anymore except Sifu Erle Montaigue. This simply IS NOT true! I have personally practiced the 'Long Imperial 108 Set' for the past 40+ years.....and have taught it to others for 30 years this month.....beginning in June of 1975.

                          Back then.....it was the most commonly encountered Tai-Chi Chuan Forms Set of any style worldwide.....primarily so popular due to the huge reputation of the 1st and 2nd Generations of Yang Family Masters who created...practiced...and taught this Set. They were considered the best of the best in the Tai-Chi Chuan world of their day.....and so most enthusiasts wanted to learn and practice the same Sets that they did.

                          The traditional style of performance of the 'Old Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set' reflects its Chen Style Lao-Jia roots in the overall sequential arrangement of the Form Set.....as well as in its lower stances and more difficult legwork.....the inclusion of Fa-Jing techniques and changes of speed at Advanced Levels of practice.....and so forth.

                          Most of these features are absent from Yang Cheng-Fu's 'Modified Large Frame 88 Forms Set' which has become the Official Yang Family Standard Set following World War II. Yang Family Masters in recent decades have even officially denied the existence of some of the older generation of Yang Style Sets.....insisting that Yang Cheng-Fu's 'Modified Large Frame 88 Set' is the ONLY legitimate Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan Set. This also is quite simply NOT true!
                          Last edited by Sifu Stier; 4 June 2005, 07:34 AM.
                          http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sifu Stier .... I'm not sure what you mean by saying you are "Invisible" ... your posts are very visible.

                            If, however, you are refering to the fact that other users cannot see your username displayed when you are logged on I can help with that. When a new user registers they have many options to setup .. and one of those is to be "invisible". The choice(s) made by the user remain(s) unchanged unless the user decides to modify it themselves.

                            If a user would like to change this option they can do so by going to the User Control Panel (UserCP in the top menu), choosing the "Edit Options" button and checking (or unchecking) the "Use Invisible Mode" selection box.

                            Hope that is useful.

                            Andrew
                            Sifu Andrew Barnett
                            Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland - www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

                            Flowing Health GmbH www.flowing-health.ch (Facebook: www.facebook.com/sifuandrew)
                            Healing Sessions with Sifu Andrew Barnett - in Switzerland and internationally
                            Heilbehandlungen mit Sifu Andrew Barnett - in der Schweiz und International

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                            • #15
                              No Longer Invisible!

                              Thank you, Andrew!

                              Apparently....one of my teenagers set the 'Invisible Mode' so they could peruse the postings here without anyone responding to their Forum presence......thinking it was me online. I appreciate your kind assistance!
                              http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

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