Crazy Gurus

[Antidote]

Hi

I wonder why most of the Gurus seems crazy ?

If you watch Osho, ADida, Ramana Maharshi or the modern spiritual teacher David Deida, all of them are completely excentric. They seem to have some wisdom, they have great insights, no doubt that, but after one great insight it comes hundreds of non-senses. All of them claim that are Enlightened, but it seems to me that they are tortured souls, they are not in peace of mind.

Sifu Wong says many times that wrong practice especially in advanced exercices could be very dangerous, fisicaly , emotionaly and spiritualy.

I wonder if these Gurus practice advanced yoga meditations and pranayamas in wrong way or maybe a litle too much.

Maybe all their insights come from overtraining !

With all the respect for them and they followers

Blessings

Antidote

[Ovidius]

Tortured souls?

Hi Antidote!

All of them claim that are Enlightened, but it seems to me that they are tortured souls, they are not in peace of mind.

I do not agree, this is just my opinion. What is crazyness? What is enlightenment? Who knows if one is enlightened or not -- can it be tested or should it be tested? Was Gotama Buddha tested, was Jesus tested? If yes, what were the criterions? Did they live their life as a normal person, or was their life a sort of anomaly? Being crazy is a sort of anomaly of behaviour too, and at the end who is crazy, and who is not, is determined by the society. I think the whole idea of enlightenment is crazy from the western point of view. Therefore, it is very hard for me to think that the persons who claim to be enlightened would act as normal, sane people.

Let us take an example, one of Sifu Wong's teachers did not sleep at nights like normal people do, instead he stayed in lotus position and meditated (source: Question and Answers somewhere). I am not saying he was enlightened, but definitely he acknowledged that something has to be done (or should I say NOT to be done) in a very intensive manner to achieve excellent results. This would appear as very unsocial, autistic, and even mad behaviour for majority of the people.

To me Ramana Maharshi and David Deida do not look tortured at all. ADida I have not heard, who is he/she? Osho looks and sounds a bit sad sometimes, but then again, he was very ill, and even he had a right to express emotions. Jiddu and U.G. Krishnamurti are melancholic type of persons, like Prabhupada too. I would not say that they did -- whatever they did -- in a wrong way. There are differences in personalities, even in spiritual teachers. All of them had good and bad days.

Best wishes,
Panu

[Antidote]

What i mean is not about beeing crazy compared to whats is normal in our society, all of us are crazy in our own ways...

It's not because of their behaviours or the things they say, it's more about how i feel when i look at them.

For example, Sifu Wong presence open our hearts, he spreads love and compassion through his presence, all the fears and worries dissolve when we are near to Sifu, his positive energy pervades our hearts and gives us peace of mind. This is what i think is supposed to happen in contact with a spiritual advanced person, his mere presence can give us a glimpse of what Enlightment could be. This does not happen ( in my case ) with Gurus like Osho. When i saw a videoclip of Osho i felt realy bad, i felt negative vibrations, isn't supposed to feel the opposite ?
David Deida is contraditory, I like very much his work, but sometimes i feel negative energy coming from.

(Each person could feel in a different way - the "negative" energy is always subjective )


And personality is not an excuse because an Enlightened being transcends personality, " An Enlightened being realizes that his so-called self is actually the vast, unlimited Universe."

" I had my mind when deluded in former days
Now i have no mind in Ultimate Reality "
Damo

Blessings

Antidote

[Ovidius]

For example, Sifu Wong presence open our hearts, he spreads love and compassion through his presence, all the fears and worries dissolve when we are near to Sifu, his positive energy pervades our hearts and gives us peace of mind.

I have no doubts about Sifu Wong's abilities and the presence you are describing, although I do not have direct experience of it: I have to refer and trust what you and his other students say. Based on the clarification of what you mean by the crazyness of many gurus I would just say that it is very good that there are many types of teachers -- something for everyone -- and I think most of the people who are associated into these kind of studies respect their teacher very much and value him or her as the best and the most sane person.

This is what i think is supposed to happen in contact with a spiritual advanced person, his mere presence can give us a glimpse of what Enlightment could be. This does not happen ( in my case ) with Gurus like Osho.

I understand what you mean. You have compared the feelings that other teachers (texts, pictures, videos) create and found that Sifu Wong is your choise, the one you trust the most.

And personality is not an excuse because an Enlightened being transcends personality, " An Enlightened being realizes that his so-called self is actually the vast, unlimited Universe."

This personality and enlightenment must be a much discussed topic in the Buddhist philosophy -- I would very much like to know what they mean by the "person" and how the "I have no personality" can be seen in a Buddha's behaviour and thinking. Anyway, it is a pity that enlightened people are so rare species...

Sincerely,
Panu

[Antidote]

Conclusion : Our teacher is always the best teacher ( for us ).

There are many kinds of students, and there are many kinds of teachers.

I'm sure that Osho students feel very good in his presence, as i feel good in Sifu Wong presence.

it's excelent that there are different teachers

I must say i respect all Gurus, even if i don't feel good about them, i'm sure that they are good teachers.

This world would be much better, if there were more Gurus around ( crazy or not )

Blessings

Antidote

[Darryl]

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Anyway, it is a pity that enlightened people are so rare species...

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[Antonius]

I have no doubts about Sifu Wong's abilities and the presence you are describing, although I do not have direct experience of it: I have to refer and trust what you and his other students say.

Don't do that! Don't take our word for it! Direct experience is EVERYTHING!

The same applies to other gurus. I've never met any of the gurus listed in this thread, so I can't be sure about them. Period. I might have my suspicions, or my hopes, but I just don't know. Even if I meet one face to face, it still may not be clear.

If I had walked by Sifu Wong in a restaurant before meeting him, would I have recognized him for what he is? Maybe. Maybe not.

My point is that if you aren't extremely mindful, real masters can fool you just as fake ones can.

In the end, I think you either follow one, or you don't. If you follow a master for a few months or a few years and aren't happy with your progress, then it's time to reevaluate.

[Chiahua]

Does Mr. Collette accept Visa?




PS that was hilarious! "OMMMMMMMMMM"!!!

[subclock]

Darryl Siheng ,

Would it be possible to order the robe without also buying the course ? I just want to look like I am enlightened so that I can fool more people into joining my Naked Ninja Cult Of Doom ( email for membership forms ) , not waste all that time on silly things like enlightenment .

More seriously , I would say that if the students are truly happy and are getting the desired results then who am I to question their chosen path ?

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[Ovidius]

Darryl, hahhahaha... you have truely catched the essentia of selling a product. I hope you sell also authentic certificates that prove ones enlightenment. Should make good impression to relatives when put on the wall at the side of Welder of the Year diploma.

Best wishes,
Panu

[Ovidius]

Direct experience is EVERYTHING!

Of course it is the best, but not in every case there is a chance to get that direct experience -- like when we are talking about deceased masters. (In a case of Sifu Wong there is a chance of direct experience, I don't deny that.)

Even if I meet one face to face, it still may not be clear.

Then even direct experience can be fallible.

My point is that if you aren't extremely mindful, real masters can fool you just as fake ones can.

Could it be that real masters can be even better tricksters than fake ones

Best wishes,
Panu

[Mark A]

Direct Experience

Hey Panu,
I think you are right in what you say about real master being better trickster than false one. Here is my analaogy if you are going to see a magician then you want to go away thinking " was that magic"?

If you can see the rabbit running around the stage then you can safely assume that the Magician is not very good ( grins).

As for myself I have studied under a few people and I feel that I have some knowledge of martial arts and psycholgy etc. To me I feel that I can make some kind of informed judgement on magicians.

Now let us take some 17th century peasant who has no idea of magic or modern day magic and put him into a show. He would probably be leading a mob of his peers shouting thing likes " burn the witch" " he set the evil eye on my best milk cow" etc( ok that might be going a bit far )

I think that what I am saying it all depend on the person and what they think and feel and the experience they have. I think what makes a good Guru or master is if they have the students best interest at heart.
If you look at the essence of a cult, they prey on people and systematically break them down ie choosing who that person can marry, Saying if you want to be saved you have to give the Guru/Master/Teacher all your belonging etc.

I feel that the last example would make me a little bit suspicous of a Guru
Thanks for your time
Mark A

[Antonius]

Then even direct experience can be fallible.

Oh definitely. Scientists deplore direct experience because it's so hard to trust. For example:

Read the sentence aloud once. As you do, count the number of F's in the sentence:

FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE-

SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF-

IC STUDY COMBINED WITH THE

EXPERIENCE OF MANY YEARS.



How many did you get? Now go back and count them again. Most people count 3. There are 6. Experience is often tricky -- hence the birth of the double-blind clinical study.

But on the other hand, there are times when experience is everything. Can you do a double-blind study on love? If scientists "proved" that love doesn't exist, would you believe them?

In terms of masters and gurus, I think it's something you just know. My suggestion that you don't take our word for it was actually advice given by the Buddha. I think you are sincere when you say "I have no doubts about Sifu Wong's abilities," and sincerity is a good thing. I just want to discourage you from taking other people's (even mine!) word as enough. Ultimately, it's up to you, not us, to decide for yourself.

[cnholmes]

Now go back and count them again.

Cool experiment. Just for future reference, notice how you can't repeat it. Something else scientists have trouble with.

Chris.

[Darryl]

Mathematical illusions

On the subject of illusions -

Three friends all go out for dinner. The dinner costs £25, so they all pay £10 and get £5 change. They each take £1 back and give the remaining £2 as a tip. Each person has paid £9 (£10 - £1) and given a £2 tip so .. where is the last £1?