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  • Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Course


    Hello everyone. I am just registered here.

    I have few questions regarding everyone post training on the intensive kungfu course:
    (I am planning to take it either this year or next year depending on my current situation)

    1. Do you need to have a sparring partner afterwards or you can train by yourself ? I ask this question because of my future situation. You see, once I take Sifu Wong's kungfu course, I will not have the ability to go to another kungfu school because they just don't exist in my country, litterally (I am currently in the US getting my grad degree, so I can study kungfu there. I am planning to take it after my graduation). My mom managed to locate a TKD instructor who is willing to spar with me privately, but I don't think it will be the same thing since it is a non chinese MA and I don't like it. (I am currently studying Hsing-I kungfu in the US)

    2. If you can train by yourself, how useful is it??? What I mean is how much can you progress, if any at all??? I am under the assumption that the post training for intensive kungfu course requires at least a sparring partner to make it fruitful since Sifu Wong won't be watching you 24/7.

    Thanking everyone in advance for any response given.

    PS: I have more questions, but this is the most important one since it's been bugging me since September last year.



  • #2
    Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour

    Hi Quatro Bajina. Welcome to the forum.

    Do you need to have a sparring partner afterwards or you can train by yourself ?
    A sparring partner is important, but it is certainly possible to train without one. Many of Sifu’s students have trained for long periods without a partner, myself included. Without a partner, you will be neglecting certain aspect of your training, but you can make the best of the situation. Few of us train under ideal conditions. We all have to make compromises.

    If you can train by yourself, how useful is it??? What I mean is how much can you progress, if any at all???
    It is exceedingly useful. You can make tremendous progress, especially in terms of health, body development, and internal force. Solo practice is the heart of mastery. You can get quite far in kungfu without a sparring partner, but you can't get anywhere without solo practice.

    Remember that, during the course itself, you will spend a lot of time sparring with your classmates. You will leave Malaysia with the tools and skills to practice productively on your own. You will have more than enough material to practice, with or without a partner.

    Spending time with a sparring partner is a necessary stage of development, but it is one that can be done later and, if necessary, in pieces. The important thing is to prepare yourself well during your solo practice. If you lay a solid foundation, you can easily build on it later in your career.

    I am under the assumption that the post training for intensive kungfu course requires at least a sparring partner to make it fruitful since Sifu Wong won't be watching you 24/7.
    It depends on how you define "fruitful." You mentioned that you have practiced Hsing-I-Chuan. If you can already generate an energy flow to nourish your organs, channel internal force to a punch, keep your mind one-pointed, and spar using traditional kungfu patterns, then you might find the course less fruitful than a person who has never experienced these things. If you have never experienced these things and are eager to do so, then I think you will find the course incredibly fruitful with or without a sparring partner.
    Last edited by Antonius; 29 March 2003, 04:41 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


      AnthonyKorahais:

      Thank you very much for the kind reply.

      The main reason that I want to attend Sifu Wong's intensive kungfu course is that I want to experience energy flow. I have been studying Hsing-I kungfu for 4 years, but I have to admit that I have no internal dimension in it (My Teacher doesn't know how. He told me straight face). However, I can spar using Hsing-I techniques and sometimes my Sifu pitted me against other practicioner of Martial Art Styles just to gauge my progress. I just need the last piece of the puzzle, internal force.

      Like I stated in my first post, the best I can come up with for a sparring partner is just a TKD teacher, which I am not very fond at since I have spar with TKD students and I could come up on top even without any internal training at all.

      May I ask how do you train by yourself? Is it using shadow sparring??? What type of aspect will I be negelecting???

      Thanks a bunch.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour

        <em>>>"The main reason that I want to attend Sifu Wong's intensive kungfu course is that I want to experience energy flow."</em>

        If you just want to experience energy flow, you can take one of Sifu's chi kung courses. If, on the other hand, you want to learn how do develop and apply internal force, then you would be better off taking the kungfu course.

        As we already discussed in another thread (towards the end of http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=238) energy flow is not exactly the same as internal force.


        Anyone can experience energy flow after one course with Sifu, but this is not to be mistaken for internal force. Internal force is subtler and takes longer to develop.

        I have been studying Hsing-I kungfu for 4 years, but I have to admit that I have no internal dimension in it (My Teacher doesn't know how. He told me straight face).
        Your teacher is to be commended for being honest with you. You are to be commended for being honest with yourself. This kind of honesty makes life easier and more productive for everyone.

        May I ask where you study, and with who?

        However, I can spar using Hsing-I techniques and sometimes my Sifu pitted me against other practicioner of Martial Art Styles just to gauge my progress.
        Xingyiquan (Hsing-I-Chuan) is a highly evolved and effective fighting art. It can be applied to sparring without the internal aspects. Nevertheless, without the internal aspects, you are missing the best parts of the art. You cannot imagine how much your sparring and your health will improve once you learn the internal aspects.

        the best I can come up with for a sparring partner is just a TKD teacher
        Free sparring with a TKD instructor would not be advisable until later in your development. If you jump to free sparring with another stylist too soon, you will find it almost impossible to use your Shaolin techniques. In my opinion, you would be better off practicing alone.

        May I ask how do you train by yourself?
        The twin pillars of Shaolin Kungfu are combat application and force training. I spend the bulk of my time focusing on these two aspects. I spend the least amount of my time focusing on form.

        I use various methods for force training, like Sinew Metamorphosis (Yi Jin Jing), One Finger Zen (Yi Zhi Chan) and Stance Training (Zhan Zhuang). For combat application, I practice various combat sequences and their combat applications as well as variations on the sequences. I also spend time "sparring" with an imaginary opponent. For form, I practice various patterns and sets.

        Of course, my time alone is more productive since I have spent time sparring with a partner. When I practice alone, I know exactly what I'm doing. More importantly, I can also feel what I'm doing.

        This is not easy to explain. Let's take an example: Lohan Strikes Drum. This pattern is an effective counter for side kicks. Because I've practiced the technique both on my own and with a partner, I have developed the rudimentary skills to apply the technique in combat. Practicing alone deepens these skills, thereby making the technique more and more effective for combat.

        At my current level, just the gentle thought of a side kick is enough to make me respond. By practicing in this way, I train my body to respond instantaneously to thought. In some ways, training alone is actually more productive because my thoughts are much more flexible and versatile than a living partner. I can, for example, vary the size of my imaginary opponent, or the speed of his attacks.

        The main ingredient missing from solo sparring is force. You just don't feel the opponent's force. Anyone who has sparred with Doug knows how different it can be blocking a punch backed with lots of internal force.

        Hope that helps.
        Last edited by Antonius; 29 March 2003, 05:43 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


          AnthonyKorahais:

          Thanks again for the reply.

          1. I guess what I meant is internal force then. Thanks for the clarification.

          2. I gathered from your response that Shaolin Kungfu is much harder than Hsing-I. In Hsing-I, I learn the form (very simple, just one movement per form. In Hsing-I black tiger steal heart is a form, not a technique. You just do it multiple times while moving forward) then move to sparring. The sparring however is control one, for example, the first level I spar by just striking without anything else. When I am proficient, my sifu add throws to the dimension (Hsing-I lacks this one but since my sifu is also a chinese wrestling expert, he told me how to use Hsing-I strikes against throw). Once I know how to counter throw, he adds another dimension like how to get up from the ground (opponent on mount, T-mount, back mount, etc) by using Hsing-I not Jujitsu. Then add another one. I am now in kicking stage.

          I guess in Shaolin Kungfu, there are more intermediate stages before you actually spar. Is it that hard?

          3. I train in Santa Monica park (My sifu couldn't afford a studio, so we train in the park near the beach). His name is Jonathan Wang.

          4. For the TKD part, I am just thinking about sparring with him, so my Hsing-I training doesn't dissappear while I train with Sifu Wong. I will ask Sifu Wong about this idea later.

          Two last things, if you don't mind:

          a. Do you still train your Goju Ryu after taking Sifu Wong's courses?

          b. Do you know by any chance, on average, the level of Sifu Wong's new students. Sifu Wong stated that the course is for instructors or people with at least 3 years of experience. I just want to gauge the ability of the students so I am not shocked when I take the course.

          Thanks A bunch ^_^

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          • #6
            Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour

            I gathered from your response that Shaolin Kungfu is much harder than Hsing-I.
            I've never practiced Hsing-I-Chuan, so I can't really compare, but Shaolin Kungfu is hard work.

            I guess in Shaolin Kungfu, there are more intermediate stages before you actually spar. Is it that hard?
            Sifu Wong's method for training sparring is the most systematic I have ever encountered. It is hard work, but because it is so systematized, it is also very rewarding. If you want to read about this method, please take a look here: http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=104

            I train in Santa Monica park (My sifu couldn't afford a studio, so we train in the park near the beach). His name is Jonathan Wang.
            Why would you train indoors when you can train outdoors on the beach! Sounds lovely.

            For the TKD part, I am just thinking about sparring with him, so my Hsing-I training doesn't dissappear while I train with Sifu Wong. I will ask Sifu Wong about this idea later.
            Yes, talk to Sifu.

            Do you still train your Goju Ryu after taking Sifu Wong's courses?"
            After I became disillusioned with Karate, I offered my black belt as a present to a kohai (junior). This was shortly after I met Sifu in 1997, though I can't remember exactly when. I haven't practiced Goju Ryu since I gave away my belt. I don't miss it at all.

            I'll admit that things might be different if I had previously practiced Hsing-I-Chuan or another internal Chinese art. In that case, I imagine that I would periodically practice what I learned in order to keep it in memory.

            Do you know by any chance, on average, the level of Sifu Wong's new students.
            It varies in the introductory course. Some students have a decade or two of experience, and some have just a year or two. Sifu asks for 3 years prior experience, but he sometimes makes exceptions, especially for students who have studied chi kung with him.

            The more experience you have, the easier it will be to absorb the material. For example, when I first took the course, I had about 6 years of prior experience in Karate. Because of my experience, I was able to absorb not only the proper form, but also the skills and principles for all 16 of the combat sequences Sifu teaches in the course. One of my juniors, who had very little prior experience, was only able to absorb 5-6 of these sequences. Nevertheless, this was enough for him.

            The amazing thing about Sifu is that he is able to not only teach every student according to his or her own level, but also push everyone to his or her own limits. No matter what your level, I think you will find the course challenging.

            Last edited by Antonius; 29 March 2003, 05:48 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour



              Hi all,

              Just to join this thread - training on your own after the course is vital, but also personal.

              As I mentioned on another thread, the sheer amount of teachings that you are taught is enough for 5 years assimilation. Anthony is something of a freak occurance ( ) in that he absorbed all the sequences and underlying principles on the first course, I was scrambled by the second day.

              The main distinction I have seen with new students is how quickly they adapt to new methods, not how much they already know. In one sense, knowing more of other arts is a major hinderance as I found out and old habits die very very slowly. I constantly ran into the same mistakes and Sifu was quick to point them out to me, much to my regret.

              On my second course, I relaxed more. During one of the sets, I kept going over the same pattern again and again and again trying to get it to 'feel right'. I realised that Sifu had seen what I was doing, if he had told me to continue with the set I would have but he didn't, so when the next Q&A came in the course, I asked him what I should have done.

              This to me is where the part that Anthony mentioned comes in, that everyone will be pushed to their own personal limits and then pushed past them into brand new territory.

              The first course, I was out of my depth and trying to scramble through, the next time I was patient and allowed the teachings to work through me. I never noticed it, or thought about it, or even realised it - I just did it.

              To me, Sifu's Intensive Kung Fu course changes you as a person, it does not just teach you new techniques and strategies. I would highly recommend it, but it is not a pleasure cruise, even though it is highly enjoyable.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


                Darryl & AnthonyKorahais:

                Thanks for the reply.
                I guess, that's pretty much sums it up.

                Thanks for clarifying some of the issues with me, I really appreciate it.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


                  Hi all .... can't let this thread end without me

                  I went to my first Intensive Shaolin Kung Fu course with "bad" habits (and injuries) from Shotokan Karate. The "bad" has to be in inverted commas as they are good habits for Shotokan

                  As Darryl mentioned, the old habits die hard ... and are quickly picked up on by Sifu. The more senior students do also sometimes make it very clear why the habits are bad (watch out for those organ seeking kicks folks!) and maybe it is at that point that the habits really do begin to get dropped?

                  The Shaolin Kung Fu course is, as was said, a challenge for anyone of any level. Sifu does manage to push everyone to their limits .... and beyond. I remember on one occasion during my first course genuinely no longer being certain which hand was left or right! This course is certainly not for lazy people

                  Noone need be concerned with the level of the other students. If Sifu accepts you for the course and you are prepared to work (VERY) hard, you are ready. From my own experience, a master with over 20 years of experience need not necessarily be better than a novice - everything is relative. We are all beginners compared to Sifu.

                  One of the things which cannot be left out - the friendship of the other students ..... everyone helps and supports everyone. The courses I have attended have been multi-racial - people (from students to masters) from India, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, USA, England, Scotland, etc ... and of course Switzerland! Despite this diversity (or maybe because of it), everyone is equal - a fact which should not be under-estimated.

                  About training afterwards - the original question - there are, as always, pros and cons. The solo practice is extremely important - but so is the practice with a partner. My own training is almost exclusively alone - I don't have a regular training partner. In fact the most partner training I get is when I train with my kids! I am often uncertain whether or not I am progressing and don't have the wealth of prior experience which Anthony has to assist. The solution is to set aims and objectives and just enjoy your training.

                  Probably the most difficult thing when training alone is judging your own progress. When I took my second Kung Fu course I was extremely surprised at how much I had progressed. That WOW effect is maybe a big upside on the solo training.

                  WahnamCH

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                  • #10
                    Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


                    WahnamCH:

                    Thanks for the reply. I guess there are some people (probably not a lot) that train solo after the intensive course.

                    Can't differentiate between left and right hand??? Wow the course must be really hard then...If I were in your shoes I would have cried afterwards... ^_^;

                    I can't wait to take it since I am approaching 30 and I know that after that age my kungfu will go down hill. Hopefully I can quickly finish my study here in the US ASAP...



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                    • #11
                      Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour

                      Thanks for the email today, Quatro.

                      If I were in your shoes I would have cried afterwards...
                      I've seen people cry during the intensive course. I felt like crying at one point. By the end, I felt like flying.

                      I can't wait to take it since I am approaching 30 and I know that after that age my kungfu will go down hill.
                      OK kiddo. The gloves are off now!

                      I think this illustrates one of the key differences between internal and external practice. With external practice, you deteriorate with age. With internal practice, you improve with age.

                      There is no play on words here. This is not a prosaic way of saying that experience is more important than physical ability. When I say that I will be better at 50, I literally mean that I will be better at 50.

                      At the tender age of 30 (who says 30 is old?!) I cannot even begin to match a master like Sifu Wong simply because of his internal force. Though my force is decent when compared to my juniors or to external practitioners, it is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, when compared to an internal master in his 50s or 60s.

                      Sifu Wong is a perfect example. Even though he is in his 60s, he is faster, more powerful, and more skillful than me. Even if I were to somehow magically surpass him in skill, I would still be no match for his force. This is no surprise to anyone who has practiced an internal art for some time: 30 more years of practice makes a huge difference in terms of internal force.

                      Because of my practice, I feel like I am getting younger every day. I'm sure that I am not alone in this sentiment. I really cannot imagine what I will feel like at 40, or 50, or 60, but I'm excited to find out.
                      Last edited by Antonius; 29 March 2003, 05:50 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


                        -"If I were in your shoes I would have cried afterwards... "
                        Well maybe I would have had it not been for the support of the other students. We continued the training session - I think about another 1 hour. By the end I had achieved a break-through - my thanks belongs to those fellow students who, at Sifu's request, pushed me even further. And no - masochism has NOTHING to do with this!

                        -".....I am approaching 30 and I know that after that age my kungfu will go down hill"
                        That means I don't have a chance .... I'm way past 30! Somehow I think your opinion may change though - once you have attended the course and practiced regularly for some time afterwards

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                        • #13
                          Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


                          WahnamCH:

                          What I meant by past 30 is that if I don't have chikung in my kungfu training. If you have chikung training, then it's a different story.

                          There is a kungfu tenet that says "If you train only external, in the end you will end up with nothing." (I think Sifu Wong also stated this in one of his Q&A series)

                          After about 3 years (going 4) training in Hsing-I, I totally agree with this statement.



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                          • #14
                            Re: Questions On Post training Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Cour


                            AnthonyKorahais:
                            Thanks for the email today, Quatro.

                            Your welcome ^_^. I will e-mail you again to confirm once I got my fix schedule. If you need my other info (address, Phone #) please let me know.

                            I guess after 30 years of exp. in chikung training, you will be speaking from the position of force then, instead of technique or even skills itself. You cited Sifu Wong as the perfect example of this situation.

                            Thanks again for clarifying alot of stuffs with me. I really appreciate it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi all

                              Owow!! i really had questions answered as well
                              thanks to Quatro and of course thanks to all of your reply!

                              The true is that i have started not long ago with shaolin arts! i practice Kung Fu and Tai Chi Chuan and do Chi Kung practice when training and on my own.
                              I would love and i m sure i do at the near future an intensive training course of Kung Fu.
                              Sometimes i want to progress more but in reality i m patient and try to do my best!

                              I will attain for first time a Chi Kung course by Sifu this March and i look forward.

                              As well i would like to comment about age!i m 31 and i dont think that is old at all as we have a lot to do, learn and training still, and the best is to come!!! my grandfather in Crete(Greece)
                              died at 102 years old and he used to say to my grand mother that he is gone get anotehr wife!
                              he he he!

                              best wishes, raffaeL

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