Ancient warriors of the West

[Mark Blohm]

Crazy Horse

Crazy Horse is a legendary Native American warrior.
Here is some inofrmation: http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/peop...crazyhorse.htm

I watched a television program a number of months ago that detailed the battle of Little Big Horn from both persepectives. One of the historians said that, immediately before the Oglala and Cheyenne charged up the hill at Custer's men, Crazy Horse rode back and forth 4 times(4 times!) on his horse in front of Custer's men as they rained fire from the hill above. Crazy horse was unharmed, and the diversion allowed his men to advance successfully.

I believe that the American Indian tradition is rich with tales of other warriors.

Mark

[Darren]

Here's a a story I quite like....

In 1625 while England and Spain were at war. A Costal Spanish fortress was captured by the English. The English forces then prepared to go inland to continue their attack. Before the attacks were to be carried out some men went ashore to find food. One man, by the name of Richard Peeke had wandered off alone, and was attacked my Spanish musketeers. He was captured by the musketeers and was to be put on trial. During the trial Peeke was asked his opinion of the combat prowess of the Spanish soldiers. Peeke replied that the Spanish are "pullets." The Spanish were not pleased with this statement and he was challenged to fight a Spanish champion known as Tiago. Peeke accepted. His shackes were removed and a space was created for the two men to fight. Both were armed with a rapier and dagger. The fight continued for some time until Peeke, using the dagger trapped Tiago's Rapier, and swept his leg, while holding the rapier to his throat. Tiago admitted defeat. Not accepting the defeat of their champion, the Spanish demanded that Peeke fight again. Peeke accepted under the condition that be be allowed to fight using his preffered weapon, the quartrestaff. Peeke's request was granted. The head of a polearm was removed to create the staff. With his weapon of choice Peeke prepared to fight. Two Spanish swordsman came forth, at which point, Peeke sarcasticly asked if any more would like to join in. A third man was beckoned to the fight. Peeke Killed one opponent and left the other two injured and disarmed. This fight impressed his Spanish captors so much that he was released and granted a safe journey back to England.

[Fred 0]

Wow Guys

Amazing stories , Thanks, I've been much engrossed by the cross-cultural folklore, I'll try my best to find some hero stories from my continent (Africa) and maybe some more about woman.

Here's one which is a whole lot more recent, but I think, no less seeped in struggle controvasy, scandal.

Winnie (Madikizela/Spelling?) Mandela, started as a social worker in her community and soon became recognised by the ANC (the current ruling Party in South Africa, banned at that time 1960's) for her efforts to resist a system which greatly humiliated and disenfranchised her people. When her husband Nelson (I hope I need not elaborate), went to prison she continued to lead the woman, who became the footsoldiers in the struggle, since so many of the men were in prison.

The Aparthied authorities soon forcefully moved her and her kids to a remote area, with the most humiliating conditions imaginable. Yet despite this she survived.

However after the time (10 years or so) spent being constanly degraded and harrased by the Aparthied authorities, her career started becoming blackened by numerous scandals. Her name was linked to the murder of a young protester and her bitterness of ragime which had done so much to destroy her dignity was savage and greatly exploited by the media.

However, she was there with her husband on his victorious release from prison. But she was divoreced by him later. The last positive things heard about her amoungst the constant scandal, was that she was going to be concientious objecter during the whole Iraq debacle.

I doubt she actually did.

However after reading all you guys inspiring stories about men (and canine) hero's, I decided to share one of my own, about a rather shady yet hugely important (in my view) figure in my countries mythology.

Hope someone enjoyed it

[subclock]

Although not a South African , Mahatma Gandhi had a huge influence in the shaping of the country we have now .

( article taken from http://www.encounter.co.za/article/112.html )

" In 1893, a 24-year-old Indian lawyer arrived in Durban to take part in a lawsuit in Transvaal. He booked a first-class train ticket to Johannesburg – and was ordered out of the train because of his colour. He spent a cold night in the non–European waiting - room at Pietermaritzburg railway station. The lawyer’s name was Mahatma Gandhi. His experience made him decide to remain in Natal and help the growing community of Indians imported to work on the sugar plantations.

Mahatma Gandhi was born in Porbandar in the present state of Gujarat on October 2, 1869, and educated in law at University College, London. In 1891, after having been admitted to the British bar, Gandhi returned to India and attempted to establish a law practice in Bombay, with little success. Two years later an Indian firm with interests in South Africa retained him as legal adviser in its office in Durban, where he later became the first so-called "coloured" lawyer admitted to the Supreme Court.

Just before Gandhi was to return to India, he had to travel to Johannesburg on business. He booked a first-class train ticket - and was ordered out of the train because of his colour. He spent a cold night in the non–European waiting - room at Pietermaritzburg railway station. This experience made Gandhi decide to remain in Natal and help the growing community of Indians imported to work on the sugar plantations.

In 1894, Gandhi founded the Natal Indian Congress to agitate for Indian rights. In 1896, Gandhi began to teach a policy of passive resistance to, and non-cooperation with, the South African authorities. Gandhi considered the terms passive resistance and civil disobedience inadequate for his purposes, however, and coined another term, Satyagraha (Sanskrit, "truth and firmness").

In 1903 Gandhi began publishing the weekly Indian Opinion, which, from 1904, was printed at Phoenix, 20 km north of Durban, where he had started a communal farming project for Indians. In 1906 he gave aid against the Zulu revolt. Later in 1906, however, Gandhi began his peaceful revolution. He declared he would go to jail or even die before obeying an anti-Asian law. Thousands of Indians joined him in this civil disobedience campaign. Gandhi organised strikes on the coalfields and sugar plantations and led a march of Indians from Natal to the Transvaal to protest the measures put in place by the Immigration Act. He was arrested several times.

Yet in World War I he again organized an ambulance corps for the British, just like he had done during the Boer War in 1899.

In 1914 the government of the Union of South Africa made important concessions to Gandhi's demands, including recognition of Indian marriages and abolition of the poll tax for them. His work in South Africa complete, he returned to India.

Several years later, just before his seventieth birthday in 1939, Gandhi was interviewed by a missionary, Dr. John R. Mott. Mott asked Gandhi to single out the most creative experience of his life. This was Gandhi’s reply:

"I recall particularly one experience that change the course of my life. Seven days after I had arrived in South Africa the client who had taken me there asked me to go to Pretoria from Durban. It was not an easy journey. On the train I had a first-class ticket, but not a bed ticket. At Maritzburg, when the beds were issued, the guard came and turned me out. The train steamed away leaving me shivering in cold. Now the creative experience comes there. I was afraid for my very life. I entered the dark waiting room. There was a white man in the room. I was afraid of him. What was my duty; I asked my self. Should I go back to India, or should I go forward, with God as my helper and face whatever was in store for me? I decided to stay and suffer. My active non-violence began from that day."

That wintery night in the waiting room on a railway platform, Gandhi made the fateful decision which changed the lives of thousands of South Africans and still inspires us today.

---------------------------------

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[Fred 0]

So' Ntjaa myths from my fingertips

Nice one Kevin!

I did a Yahoo search under African Mythotholgy and clicked the first site, I found a cool one which I copied below. Thanks to Lex who started this I'm researching my continents mythology .

National pride I guess...

Anansi
by Micha F. Lindemans

The Ashanti trickster/culture hero, also called 'the Spider'. He is the intermediary of the sky god Nyame, his father, on whose command Anansi brings rain to quench the forest fires and determines the borders of oceans and rivers during floods. Later Anansi's place as representative was usurped by the chameleon. His mother is Asase Ya.
Anansi is sometimes regarded as the creator of the sun and the moon and the stars, as well as the one who instituted the succession of day and night. It is also believed that he created the first man, into which Nyame breathed life.

A typical trickster, he is crafty, sly, villainous, but he also taught mankind how to sow grain and how to use the shovel on the fields. He set himself up as the first king of the human beings and even managed to marry Nyame's daughter. He was beaten only in his encounter with the wax girl, to whom he stuck fast, having struck her with his legs when she refused to talk to him. The people then rushed forwards and beat the tricky Anansi.

Anansi is one of the most popular characters in West African mythology.

Hope you enjoyed.

A luta continua!
The struggle continues!
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[Fred 0]

Colonial and Indegenous Combine in South Africa

Hi, Those still into this thread?

I've been looking around and found an interesting story about this guy colonial guy, John Dunn, just to throw more stories from Africa at you's.

I found 2 articles, in tourist sites after searching John Dunn, in Google. Hopefully they will inspire international members of the forum to come and check out South Africa, we always need tourists

Taken from http://zululand.kzn.org.za/zululand/about/111.html

John Dunn, regarded as the founder of Mtunzini, was born in 1834, the third son among six children. He lived a nomadic life as a hunting guide and transport rider until 1854, when he became assistant to the British Border Agent at Nonoti, Lower Tugela. After the civil war between two Zulu factions in 1856, Dunn got to know Cetshwayo, one of the sons of the Zulu King Mpande, and resigned his post to become Cetshwayo's diplomatic adviser. In return he received 10 oxen and an extensive stretch of land over which he was a headman.

Dunn's land was roughly the present magisterial district of Mtunzini. He established his authority over it by dividing it into areas, each under the control of a favourite induna or headman. He had married Catherine Pierce, but also married a further 49 Zulu women, as was the custom of his adoptive people. This was a way of ensuring strong political and economic bonds between clans. After the Anglo- Boer war of 1879 the British appointed Dunn as one of 13 chiefs to rule the defeated Zulu Kingdom. As Chief he was responsible, with advice from his izinduna, for settling disputes and imposing sentences on transgressors. Dunn died on 5 August 1895 after short illness, and as there was no successor, a power vacuum existed in the area.

HISTORY OF JOHN DUNN

Taken from http://www.dandunntours.co.za/fam_history.htm

Few personalities in the history of Natal and Zululand have aroused as much controversy as the legendary “White Chief John Dunn”. He is mostly remembered for taking forty-nine wives and siring one hundred and seventeen children. But, this fact alone singularly unusually for many white men took wives and concubines from the indigenous black populars. Rather, John Dunn’s exceptional place in history rest on his prominent role in events that were crucially important in the shaping of modern South Africa. In a sense John Dunn’s history is “living” history of his numerous descendents have formed a distinct and vital community in southern Zululand.

In1820, John's father, Robert Newton Dunn, left his home and family in Inverness, Scotland and joined the influx of British settlers on the eastern shores of South Africa. Four years later, at Port Elizabeth, Robert married Anne Harold Biggar. They had four children; Sarah Mary, Agnes, Louisa and John. John was born in 1834, the year the family moved northwards to Port Natal (Durban), this would make him one of the first white settlers to have been born in the frontier settlement.

Robert Dunn established himself as a successful hunter and trader in ivory and hides. The Dunn family enjoyed a privileged colonial lifestyle in Port Natal. John became close to the indigenous people of the area and he learnt to speak Zulu fluently. In 1847 Robert Dunn was trampled to death by an elephant whilst out hunting with John. Financial disaster followed and Anne Dunn was forced to sell all in order to pay the families debts. She returned to Port Elizabeth with her daughters, leaving 17 year old John, alone and penniless.

At this juncture in his life, John Dunn, then seventeen years old with little formal education and no trade set about the task of fending for himself. His a amazing skill with the rifle, his fluency in Zulu and his extensive knowledge of the physical and human environment of Natal earned him a modest living as a guide for hunting parties.

He then turned to transport riding, until his employer fooled him of his salary. John retreated to the bush, taking with him 15 year old Catherine Pierce; the daughter of Robert Dunn's English assistant - a Cape-Malay woman. The two teenagers led a nomadic existence on the borders of Natal and Zululand. In 1853, they married. A friendship developed between John and Natal authorities eccentric Border Agent, retired British army officer, Joshua Walmsley. Walmsley was shocked by John's coarse and uncultured lifestyle and, under of his auspices John finished his education and became the Border Agent's assistant. With a unit of Zulu policemen, it was John's task to monitor all traffic crossing the Thukela (Tugela) river to and from Zululand.

Meanwhile, tension was mounting in Zululand as Mbuyasi and Cetshwayo, sons of the ruling Zulu King Mpande, were competing for succession of the throne. In December 1856, John Dunn became embroiled in the bitter rivalry, which culminated in a Zulu civil war.

To find out more about the intriguing adventures of this interesting man, enjoy a private tour conducted by Dan Dunn a third generation descendant of the Legendary John Dunn.

Sorry to be a shameless supporter African tourism guys

Hope it brings more stories from more cultures.

Respectfully Fred.

[Leon Leonhart]

Alright I will! Thanks for the interest people.

Britain (and England especially) has a bit of a folklore vacuum due to the various invasions its suffered. Although groups such as the Normans were quite efficient in diluting the original culture of the land, some examples do still survive. The most well known pieces of literiture are probably Ireland's Book of Kells and more famously the Welsh Mabinogion.

The Mabinogion is thought to be one of the original documents where a King Arthur is mentioned. The French and the Cornish don't like this much as they too have laid claim to the Arthurian Legends. Its a fascinating book as it is very cyclical in nature. The villains of one story often turn up as the heros of another, showing how the black and white view of good and evil did not hold so true in ancient wales. Only with the Christian invasion did such dualism take hold.

One of my favourite stories concerns the death and ressurection of a character named Lleu.(Light/Lion)

Lleu was a magical being, born of virgin birth. He was a beautiful sight to behold and was the mightiest warrior of the age, but he suffered from a curse(by his mother!) that he would never marry a human woman.
His uncle, a powerful enchanter named Gwydion takes it upon himself to solve this problem. Using his powers he creates a woman from flowers to be Lleu's wife and names her Blodeuwedd. Lleu and Blodeuwedd are married and live blissfully together for several years.

Then while Lleu is away visiting his uncle, a hunting party arrives at Lleu's castle and begs the hospitality of the Lady Blodeuwedd. The Lady gladdly agreeds and orders a feast in honour of her guests. Chief amoungst the guests is a mighty hunter named Goronwy who takes an instant fancy to his hostess. Blodeuwedd (being somewhat fickle!)quickly gives in to his attentions and falls in love with him.

The two then began to plot against Lleu. But Lleu is such a powerful warrior that Goronwy knows he would never be able to defeat him in a fair duel. So Blodeuwedd agrees to find his weakness.

When Lleu returns, Blodeuwedd, under pretence of concern for his well being, asks how easy it is for him to be killed! Lleu tells her that it is well nigh impossible for any mortal man to kill him. In a manner that is strikingly similar to Samson and Delilah, she persists until Lleu finally tells her that there is one way for him to be slain.

First the assailant must possess a spear that has been in the making for a whole year.
Then he must attack Lleu when he is neither indoors or outdoors but standing out in the open with a crude shelter over his head! Lleu must also be standing balanced with one foot on a goat and the other on a cauldron. Only then is he vulnerable!

A year later Bloduewedd brings up the subject again and feigns confusion until Lleu agrees to demonstrate! Of course Goronwy is hiding in tall grass nearby with his recently completed spear at the ready and the moment Lleu is standing atop the cauldron, he strikes! Too late Lleu realises he has been tricked and the spear rips into his side. But he does not die. At the moment he is injured, his transforms into an eagle and flies away. Bloduewedd is then free to marry Goronwy and they live together happily in Lleu's castle.

When Lleu's uncle Gwydion hears of his nephew's apparent 'death' he goes in search of his body. In the forest he finds a wild pig feasting from rotting meat that seems to be falling from the sky. He looks up to see a wounded Eagle, slowly dying with its flesh falling to the ground. Using his magic he returns Lleu to his true form and takes him home to recover.

After several months Lleu has fully recovered and goes after his wife and her lover seeking revenge. The two flee, but Lleu is simply too powerful to be eluded for long. Finally they are caught and Lleu demands that Goronwy stand and take the same blow that Lleu survived. Goronwy agrees, (having no choice) but begs Lleu to allow him to at least try and avoid the spear. Lleu agrees, knowing it will make no difference.

As Lleu hurls the spear, Goronwy cleverly dives behind a huge standing stone for shelter. But the spear shatters the stone, driving a hole straight through it and into Goronwy's body. He then turns to deal with his wife. With the help of his uncle he casts a spell so that the lady of flowers will forever live in darkness. She transforms into an owl and flys away and remains in her bird form to this day.

Scholars view this story as a representation of the cyclical nature of life, death and the rotation of the seasons. Lleu and Goronwy are actually the same person but mirror images. Lleu represents the Light(summer) and Goronwy the Darkness(winter) and they are endlessly fighting over the ownership of the natural world.(The Lady of Flowers)

We can also see the progression through the astrological symbols. Lleu can also be spelt Llew(Lion/Leo). His wife is a virgin(Virgo), and Lleu stands balanced(Libra) between a goat(Capricorn/winter) and a cauldron(Cancer/summer).
The story is a bardic riddle and a way in which the people of ancient times would have learnt that light must always give way to darkenss and vice versa, Yin flows into Yang.
We can only assume that Goronwy will likewise be ressurected and will again rise to power and slay Lleu all over again.

Alex

Great story

[Peter Clayton]

William Marshal

One, often overlooked, warrior is William Marshal. Some argue he was the greatest knight that ever lived.

This link gives the info better than I can:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William...rl_of_Pembroke

Also, from Slovakia comes a folk hero along the lines of Robin Hood. Juraj Janosik stole from the rich to give to the poor but was eventually captured when he slipped on a pea rolled on the floor by an old lady!

Btw, can I just post a controversial message here stating that I side with the historians who claim Robin Hood was from South Yorkshire / Derbyshire.

*) Robin of Loxley - Loxley is on the outskirts of Sheffield.
*) Little John of Hathersage - Hathersage is well inside Derbyshire and close to the South Yorkshire border.
*) Sherwood Forest - In those times stretched all the way up to Derbyshire.

Anyone from Nottinghamshire reading this may request my address (for hate-mail purposes) by PM.

I am now stepping off my soap box.

Peter.

[snowcelt]

Hi all,

very interesting and informative thread. A couple of details I'd like to add to the Cuchulainn and Brian Boru myths.
First off HOW Setanta killed the great hound. As the dog was about to spring on the boy, Setanta drew his hurley (like a hockey stick) and struck his ball down the dog's gullet causing him to choke. On a sudden impulse of sympathy that the dog would die in such a miserable way, the boy then picked up the dog and swinging him around by the back legs, dashed his head against the gatepost, killing him instantly....Enter the High King and Cullen the smith to find one small and bloodstained boy.Very gory I have to admit.

Brian Boru is thought to have originated in Munster, the south western province of Ireland, a place which exists to this day called Borunna. It's near Killaloe, on the Shannon, and there's a visitor centre there if you want to visit. He was High King of Ireland at the time when King Citric of the Danes ruled in Dublin. As far as I can remember, he didn't actually fight at the Battle of Clontarf (Dublin) in 1014, being already an old man, but he seems to have been a great figurehead for an otherwise scattered and divided nation, which the irish gaels were wont to be. He was supposedly killed after the battle by retreating Danes on being discovered alone in his tent. My surname O'Brien, meaning of or from Brian, and is one of many ways to spell it, is thought to derive from the clan of Brian. Although killed in 1014, the battle of Clontarf put paid to the Scandinavian power base in Ireland, thereafter being mainly trading, before becoming entirely absorbed into gaelic culture.

I liked very much the Welsh mythology of the Mabinogion and am not surprised that an irish version exists which replaces Lleu/Llew with Lugh (pronounced Loo), and the evil uncle with Balor of the Evil Eye. I wonder also about the Arthurian legend and that of Tristan and Yseult. They may be considered english but I can also see a lot of celtic story lines within them.
Are there any english mythology which has a later more Saxon "flavour" like Beowulff?

Whatever the origin, a good tale is a good tale, and if it makes the hairs stand up on your neck, and inspires, that's what makes it eternal, and links us all wherever we come from.

Regards,

Kevin.

[Peter Clayton]

Whenever I am travelling up ( or down ) the west coast of Ireland I always see the sign for Killaloe - I shall remember your story next time I see it .

Peter.

[Alex McArdell]

Are there any english mythology which has a later more Saxon "flavour" like Beowulff?

From what little I've read about it, much of the Saxon mythology that existed in England was destroyed or changed by the Norman conquest. It was this that inspired JRR Tolkien to write the Lord of the Rings, in an attempt to provide England with a mythology, albeit a fictional one.

I think he considered the Saxon defeat at the Battle of Hastings one of the great tragedies of English history as it had such a damaging effect on the culture. I think he even stated that the Saxons would have won easily if only they had developed cavalry. The Saxons always rode to a battle but always fought on foot!
This promted Tolkien to create the heroic Riders of Rohan, his own version of mounted Saxons, who ride in and save the day.

There may be some untainted surviving Saxon legends but I don't know of any myself.

Alex

[Peter Clayton]

Thanks for that Alex, being a Tolkien fan I didn't know that.

If only the Saxons hadn't broken their shield wall and chased down the hill the entire history of England would be a very different one.

Peter.

[Peter Clayton]

Xia Robber

Just a quick one.

I was browsing the wiki-pedia and looked up 'xia'. Interestingly, the chinese refer to Robin Hood as a 'xia robber' - being a person who broke the laws but held a sense of rightousness.

Peter.