which translation of 'Tao te ching'?

[alexstedman]

Dear All

Recently, I have become very interested in both Eastern and Western Philosophy, even though they vary quite greatly. I am especially interested in the 'Tao te ching', but there are so many versions out there!

I would like to ask, therefore, if anyone has read this book, and if there are any particular translations that stand out?

Warm regards to all, and deep thanks in advance

Alex

[cnholmes]

Here's the one I liked, although as I've said before I'm no expert on Taoism.

Tao Teh Ching (Shambhala Library) by LAO TZU, JOHN C.H. WU (Translator)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570629617/qid=1101488602/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-5483290-5902331?v=glance&s=books

Amazon's got a preview function for you to take a peek

Looking forward to hearing other people's favourites.

Chris.

[Chiahua]

Apologies in advance if this repeats anything you already know...
The language of the Dao De Jing is very sparse. For that reason there are many many translations available. I would say it's very difficult to impossible (more impossible) to hit on a "right" translation. The best way to choose a tranlation depends on what you want in a translation, and how well those wants match up with the aims of the translator. For example the translator may be looking to catch the poetry of the book. One translation that I know of, the translator didn't read classical Chinese, but instead took a number of available translations in western languages and made a new English translation. And as you'd expect, it's beautiful to read. The one that I've been happy with is D.C. Lau's translation; his is more scholarly, and is careful to point out any suspicious passages that may have been added by other authors. The trade off is that it's a bit more ponderous to read. If you are serious about being scholarly and such, I would browse various university websites and look up the eastern humanities syllabi and see if you can check out their book list. If you have lots of time on your hands you could see which translations are preferred by the professors. On the other hand, you may want to capture "the feeling" of the text, so something more poetic may appeal to you. Good luck and happy reading!

[alexstedman]

Thanks to both of you for your very helpful replies. I shall do a little background research into what there is, and some soul-searcihng into what I want

Warm regards
Alex

[Zhang Wuji]

I am not sure if my comments will help but here goes.

I read the Daode Jing in its source language, ie, Chinese, a few times, and am re-reading it now. My interpretations change each time I read it. When I was studying it back in school, I only tried to understand its political meaning. Today, having been introduced to qigong, I look for its spiritual meaning. I think those who read the Bible have the same experiences. THe same verse looks different each time.

But like the Bible, the Daodejing is best read in its original language. The essence really seeps into you. You may be surprised that it is much easier to read than a Chinese newspaper sometimes, which is why I think in some Western universities they start the students on classical Chinese after just one year of foundation studies.

[Chiahua]

And that's why reading in translation can be pretty misleading. The choices of words matter in the translation, because different words will set off different ideas in the readers. It was written expressly that "the dao that can be spoken of is not the true dao", so it makes sense that this work will mean different things each time you read it. In that sense, the best translation of the DaoDeJing is the most vague.
Wuji, did you ever have problems with finding different versions of the DaoDeJing, or running across words/characters that mean different things in different parts of Chinese history?

[Zhang Wuji]

Wuji, did you ever have problems with finding different versions of the DaoDeJing, or running across words/characters that mean different things in different parts of Chinese history?

Well, unlike the Taijiquan classics, the Daodejing has only one Chinese version, so I had no problems there. The Chinese novels on the other hand are quite a mess.

As to words with different meanings in different times, the examples abound. But to focus on the first line in the Daodejing, I will say why I think translations are utterly indequate.

My own take (and this is copyrighted, OK) that the author meant it as a pun while delivering a serious message at the same time. Why did he say "Dao ke dao, fei chang Dao" when he could have said 'Dao ke yan2/yue1yun2/wei4 etc"? There are like half a dozen synonyms for "dao" (to say) that are equally if not more appropriate. If you read it in anything other than Chinese, you would miss the cleverness of the author. Any "chang Dao" need not mean "true Dao" - it could mean the Dao that is universal, popular, applicable, which are all different from "true".

[Chiahua]

Well, unlike the Taijiquan classics, the Daodejing has only one Chinese version, so I had no problems there. The Chinese novels on the other hand are quite a mess.

Well, since I can't actually read Chinese, I am at quite a loss. But I thought there were a couple versions that were around. For instance, the tomb at Mawangdui was reputed to have a number of copies of classics that predated the copies available before the discovery of the tomb. That version was supposed to date back to about the Han dynasty, whereas the other versions had been transcribed and retranscribed continuously, no doubt picking up erroneous characters. One of the most notable differences between the version of the DaoDeJing discovered at the shrine and the ones that were around was that the order of the books were reversed. This led some scholars to believe that the more political aspects of the work were intended to be the main focus.
Like your own example, so many chinese words sound or look the same, it's not hard to imagine someone not knowing the true meaning copying down the wrong character!

[cnholmes]

There is a lot of translated material here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/

Its free

[Chiahua]

Its free

And the reason because... it dates from 1891, whew! Old skool!

[Antonius]

But like the Bible, the Daodejing is best read in its original language.

Well said, Wuji. Or like reading Shakespeare in English. I haven't read the Chinese translations, but I'm guessing they don't do Hamlet justice.

By the way, Wuji, let me tell you a quick story. When I was in Malaysia last year, I met some reporters for the local Chinese paper (who ran an article about Sifu...with me on the front cover!! ). Anyway, I spoke to them a tiny bit in Mandarin. They asked me my Chinese name. I told them (Ke An Dao). They asked me if I knew what it meant. To which I replied, "Dao ke dao, feichang dao."

Their jaws about hit the floor.

[Zhang Wuji]

Shakespeare is very poorly translated indeed, and actually I cannot do better. I mean, how does one translate something like:
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones. "

I can wax lyrical about Chinese literature for hours but Shakespeare just takes my breath away.

But I have just been told about a great translator who re-created Shakespearean plays into Chinese works so that they read like they were originally written in Chinese.

I like your anecdote about the reporters. Maybe you should have followed up with the next line (ming ke ming, fei chang ming) and say your name needs no meaning.

[cnholmes]

And the reason because... it dates from 1891, whew! Old skool!

unlike the ultra modern Tao Te Ching

[Mike B]

Its all Greek to me

But like the Bible, the Daodejing is best read in its original language.

Yes indeed - eg you get quite a difference if you read the Greek word for young girl as 'young girl' and not 'virgin'

Mike

[Chiahua]

unlike the ultra modern Tao Te Ching

Haha you got me there! But you know? Somehow I get the feeling that the sparseness of the original would actually make it more "modern" than any translation, since you can interpret it in more ways. I don't think that makes sense, but...