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In total darkness, we are all the same, separated only by varying levels of Consciousness to Light the Way! Don't allow the Self-Limiting Illusions of Ego Attachment to deceive your mind. To be truly free requires the complete letting go of all ego constraints! Few people in any period of human history have been able to do this, as most of the posts on this thread have so marvelously demonstrated!
Last edited by Sifu Stier; 1 January 2005, 03:20 AM.
In the end, we are nothing but stepping stones for one another in our individual journeys towards wisdom and liberation. You are nothing but a stepping stone for those around you, just as I am nothing but a stepping stone for those around me.
Please know that for practical purposes, I am exercising an ego-construct called "moderator". That is the stepping stone I am to be for all of the posters in this thread, including you.
All brothers, sisters and honoured guests are welcome on this forum provided that they come here with a view to learn, discuss, debate and mutually share.
Your most recent posting appears to have been designed to undercut the efforts of those who have put in time, energy and genuine experience into writing their posts. May I remind you that you yourself have been a major contributor to this thread, and thereby run the risk of inadvertently undermining yourself with the above statement?
I would respectfully ask that you clarify what your intent is, Sifu Stier. Is it to share and mutually learn? If so, you are welcome here.
If not, then please seriously consider whether or not you are wasting your time and ours.
Please do not put me in a position where I am forced to write in this manner to a person of your standing again. Thank you.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander!
Dear Emiko:
Perhaps I should be asking you what your intended purpose here is! Why do you take exception to my post, and chide me, yet fail to say even a single word of admonishment to some who openly berate the posts of those who are not members of your organization??? It would appear that a 'double standard' of moderation is at work here!
Did I mention any names or specifically point a finger at anyone in my post? No! Did I exclude myself from the 'marvelous demonstration' category? No! My comments were of a general and all-inclusive nature, meant as a helpful reminder for the benefit of us all, including you and me. If you or anyone else chooses to sensitively read something more than this in my words, then perhaps it would be especially beneficial for such individuals to personally address the self-imposed limitation of such an ego illusion in their meditation practice! I do daily! The more knowledge and skill we acquire, the easier it is to fall into ego attachments to same. Therefore, every person posting here hopefully understands that we each only compete with ourselves on the spiritual path, and ultimately must overcome only our own deficiencies and shortcomings, not anyone else! Let's not stumble over our own stepping stones! Please don't force me to speak to a person of your standing here in this way again.
I am wishing you much Light and Love in the coming New Year! May it be your best year ever!
With warmest regards~
Last edited by Sifu Stier; 1 January 2005, 09:23 AM.
Your previous post Self-Limiting Illusions! has certain undertones which, considering the timing of the post and your long absence from this thread, could well be taken as finger-pointing or the like. I don't personally find Emiko's comments out of order considering the timing.
Considering your response to Emiko's post I would say either your post was not relevant to the thread at all as it did not deal with the central theme(s) or it was poorly timed. In either case, it was inappropriate in my opinion.
There is no double standard here, but there is a topic. The only people being admonished are the ones who fail to stick to that topic. This has nothing to do with being a member of our organization. It has everything to do with respectfully staying on topic. Sunyata is not a member of our organization and yet has no trouble sticking to the topic at hand.
Interesting points, Sunyata. Thanks. I'm not sure if a discussion of pre-Chan Chinese Buddhism is relevant here, but it might be. For example, some scholars try to trace the origins of Zen not to Bodhidharma, but back to the 4th century Chinese monks Tao An and Hui Yuan.
But these monks weren't Buddhist per se -- they were meditation masters, and they were influenced by Confucianism and Taoism in addition to Buddhism. As you know, the word for meditation in Chinese is "chan", which is also the word for "zen". The term "Chan Shi" was used for both Tao An and Hui Yuan, but this term doesn't necessarily mean "a Buddhist master". It means "meditation master".
If these monks were the early "patriarchs" of Zen Buddhism, why aren't there records of Zen Buddhism in China between their deaths and Bodhidharma's arrival? More importantly, why was their form of meditation so different than that found in Zen?
These monks practiced a form of meditation similar to the Sarvastivada school of Buddhism. I discussed Sarvastivada earlier and mentioned thatit is characteristically different from Zen Buddhism. If Tao and and Hui Yuan founded the Zen school, why is Zen characteristicially different from Sarvastivada?
Before I departed on my Holiday travels, I was reading your learned opinion here that simple, practicle experience in meditation is the 'benchmark' of experiential knowledge, and as such is of greater value and of higher 'authority' than mere scholarly dissertation. I totally agree with you. Upon returning to this thread after the Holidays, however, I find several pages of your scholarly dissertation, but no offering of how any of it provides you or any of us with solid, experiential spiritual benefit.
As a life-long student of continuing education, I very much enjoy reading your posts, and thank you for sharing your wealth of information on these subjects. What I'm really interested in, however, is information I can't access online or in the several thousand books in my library. Thus, I'm wondering if you might share from your personal experience in meditating, so that your Zen might also be our Zen! Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Sifu Stier; 2 January 2005, 09:07 AM.
Sifu Stier: I think that my direct experience of these traditions is self-evident in my posts, especially in how I exemplify the Zen lessons of being simple, direct, and effective.
For example, I have shown an ability to maintain mental clarity through a long and confusing thread. Meditation, particularly Zen meditation on the void, has enabled me to see more clearly, and I think this is evidenced in the way I have handled this thread.
My experience is also evident in my ability to write dozens of posts (before the holidays) while simultaneously studying for and taking 8 final exams. That level of physical and mental energy is a direct manifestation of my training. Without meaning to brag, I might point out that I scored straight As on those exams. I might also point out that, while everyone at school, in the clinic, and at home got sick during this time period, I stayed healthy.
Furthermore, I write on this forum under the direct supervision of Sifu Wong. I am his disciple, and his representative. I am listed as a contact on his website and in his books. For many people here who have direct experience of Sifu Wong's teachings, these facts are a strong testimony.
And if anything about me is unclear, people need only click on my profile for access to dozens of photos of me in action. Or they might look on Sifu's site for videos of me in action. Or they might ask for an opinion from one of the hundreds of people on this forum who have met me in person. Or they might arrange to meet me in person (as many have done).
As for sharing my personal experiences, I have repeatedly drawn connections to these in this thread. If you did not notice these connections, then please take another look at my posts.
The Importance of Direct Experience in both Zen and Taoism
As I mentioned earlier (and also in my last post), we in Shaolin Wahnam are lucky to benefit from both Zen and Taoist teachings. The principal philosophy and practice is Zen, but there are also many Taoist lessons and practices. This gives us a chance to experience -- not just read about -- the many benefits of these two wonderful traditions. Indeed, because we have direct experience of both, and since we also read the literature of both, I believe that we are in a better position to understand the two traditions than scholars who merely read about them.
But isn't analyzing texts what scholars do best? I think it's worthwhile to remember that both Zen and Taoist texts point at experiences that are beyond words. In this regard, a purely theoretical understanding of Zen or Taoist texts is inferior to an understanding based on direct experience.
An analogy: a scholar might read about Small Universe Breathing in "The Art of Chi Kung" and have a theoretical understanding of the exercise, but without some chi kung experience, this understanding will be of no practical value. Though the text points at experiences beyond the words (the feeling of a ball of energy at dantian, for example), the scholar will not have access to these experiences. On the other hand, any of Sifu's students with about a year's experience in Dantian Breathing would have an experiential understanding when reading the same text.
In both Zen Buddhism and Taoism, direct experience of the lessons is of the utmost important. Without direct experience, the lessons are empty. But even a decade of practice doesn't guarantee direct experience of the lessons. Sometimes, if the lessons are practiced wrongly, they can bring detrimental effects. In order to gain experience of the lessons, one must practice diligently, but also correctly.
It is not always easy to judge when someone is speaking or writing from direct experience. The arguments of scholars and others in positions of authority can seem very convincing. But if we take the time to thoroughly examine their words, things should become clearer. Differentiating between those who speak from experience and those who do not is a skill that gets better with practice, and one that is exceedingly useful not only in reading about Zen and Taoism, but also in our personal and professional lives.
Last edited by Antonius; 2 January 2005, 01:27 PM.
I think it is an example of how Zen teaching has taken a language typical to Taoism. The source above says that: "Chinese master Kakuan drew the pictures of the ten bulls, basing them on earlier Taoist bulls - - His version was pure Zen, going deeper than earlier versions". It would be interesting to see the earlier versions.
According to your quote of Walpola Rahula, he seems to think that the origins (of the message) of pictures are Buddhist and not Taoist. It may be so, but the interesting keypoints are the style (not typical to Zen) and that there has been a similar Taoist story before, and this is a kind of a Zen response to that. The nature of this being a response to something is absolutely clear to me, you see, Kakua says in tenth chapter "I use no magic to extend my life". He clearly wants to differentiate from the original stories of bulls where such life extending practices are probably encouraged.
Best wishes,
Panu
Arriving at one goal is the starting point to another. (John Dewey)
well done in your exams!
the things you've said in your last post are just what i've been trying to say. Not trying to jump your train! but it makes me happy to be confused and despairing then dadaaa what was i so worried about?
I'm not sure that I see your point (or maybe we just agree?). Even forgetting the quote by Walpola Rahula, and assuming that Kakuan was indeed responding to prevalent Taoist ideas of the time, and assuming that he may have intentionally responded by writing in a more Taoist style -- even then, how does that show that Taoist practices and philosophies were blended into Zen?
The line you quoted says the opposite to me (although I would have to look at the original to make a final decision on the translation). I think that by saying "I use no magic to extend my life," Kakuan is basically saying, "I am different than a Taoist."
So Kakuan is doing exactly what I've been doing throughout this thread -- illustrating differences between Zen and Taoism. In this case, he is doing it by saying that Zen does not make use of the Taoist pill (i.e. the Golden Elixir) that aims at achieving immortality.
Last edited by Antonius; 2 January 2005, 03:09 PM.
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