That was Zen, this is Tao!

[Antonius]

More Fun

Thanks Joan. I'm glad you had fun. Differentiating Zen writings from Taoist writings is an interesting exercise. Ready for some more fun?

Let's continue with two different qigong exercises from modern sources. One exercise is influenced by Zen, and the other is influence by Taoism. Can you tell which is which?

Exercise 1

Stand upright and relaxed with your feet fairly close together. Place one hand on your middle energy field, about two inches below your navel. Place your other hand over it. Open your mouth slightly. Then empty your heart -- that is, dispel irrelevant thoughts.

It is important to have an “empty heart” throughout this exercise.

Exercise 2

Reaffirm the star above you and the earth directly below you. Fix the image of the North Star and the Big Dipper six to nine feet above your crown. See the cup of the Big Dipper filling with violet light, which gathers Chi from the North Star and the universe. Reach up with your left hand, and hold on to the handle of the Big Dipper. Pour the violet light down to your personal star 4 to 6 inches above your head, in order to predigest the energy of the violet light. Then let it flow down to your crown, into the Upper Tan Tien to be processed and flow down to the heart center (Middle Tan Tien) or to the back of the head down to C-7 (Cervical 7) and T-2 (Thoracic 2) and down to the palm.

(Have fun. I'll provide the answer soon.)

[Chiahua]

bookish ramblings

If Zen writings are not symbolic, then why would the master be pleased with some answers but not with others? What the Zen master wants from his students is not just the answer itself. The master is looking at how the student answers. He uses language as a tool to test his students, or to confirm whether his students have had a spiritual awakening (satori).

That is an excellent point, thank you for that!

This use of language is not found in Taoism, but it was used by Zen masters long before Bodhidharma’s arrival in China.

That's an interesting observation. Do you have any citations of such uses of language? I'm curious because I read that Zen and its use of language was a reaction against what was the prevailing trend of Buddhist literature which was, while I wouldn't say "Taoist-like", verrrrry arcane and symbolic (the Hua-Yen/Flower Garland Sutra comes to mind). Or if not very arcane, then in the form of parables as in the Lotus Sutra. Such direct use of language would definitely be in the minority prior to the founding of Ch'an I would think.
It's important to note that like the bible, there might probably multiple authors of the Zhuangzi where people later on in the game have added commentary that may have been mistaken for being part of the original work. The translation I have of the Zhuangzi that I cite here offers a good exposition.

Happy reading/practicing!
Chia-Hua

[Ovidius]

10 Bulls

Anthony, I bet that the first one is influenced by Zen and the second by Taoism.

Below is a text I copy-pasted from a e-book, and the text is called 10 Bulls. It is written by a Chinese master Kakuan (1100-1200). What do you think, is it Zen or Taoist? I'm going to spend Christmas at home, so I'll reveal the answer on next week maybe. Enjoy!

Is the pasture of this world, I endlessly push
aside the tall grasses in search of the
bull.

Following unnamed rivers, lost upon the inter-
penetrating paths of distant mountains,

My strength failing and my vitality exhausted,
I cannot find the bull.

I only hear the locusts chirring through the
forest at night.

Along the riverbank under the trees, I discover
footprints!

Even under the fragrant grass I see his prints.

Deep in remote mountains thy are found.

These traces no more can be hidden than one's
nose, looking heavenward.

I hear the song of the nightingale.

The sun is warm, the wind is mild, willows
are green along the shore,

Here no bull can hide!

What artist can draw that massive head,
those majestic horns?

I seize him with a terrific struggle.
His great will and power are inexhaustible.
He charges to the high plateau far above the cloud-mists,
Or in an impenetrable ravine he stands.

The whip and rope are necessary,
Else he might stray off down some dusty road.
Being well trained, he becomes naturally gentle.
Then, unfettered, he obeys his waster.

Mounting the bull, slowly I return homeward.
The voice of my flute intones through the evening.
Measuring with hand-beats the pulsating
harmony, I direct the endless rhythm.
Whoever hears this melody will join me.

Astride the bull, I reach home.
I am serene. The bull too can rest.
The dawn has come. In blissful repose,
Within my thatched dwelling I have abandoned
the whip and rope.

Whip, rope, person, and bull--all merge in No - Thing.
This heaven is so vast no message can stain it.
How may a snowflake exist in a raging fire?
Here are the footprints of the patriarchs.

Too many steps have been taken returning to the root and the source.
Better to have been blind and deaf from the beginning!
Dwelling in one's true abode, unconcerned with that without--
The river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red.

Barefooted and naked of breast, I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden, and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees become alive.

[Chiahua]

hmmmmm

Hello? I did open a new thread to discuss the similarities between these systems. IT WAS THIS THREAD! But it has since been highjacked into the undying argument! What a pity for everyone!

In terms of texts and readings, maybe it'd be better to focus the discussion around a few core pieces of literature. As Panu astutely pointed out, Zen and Taoism aren't necessarily unified when it comes to the texts, and possibly practices as well.
To draw an analogy from Kung-fu, these seem to me outward forms, and that ultimate goal --enlightenment, merging with the tao, brahman, being one with god-- transcends whatever school one subscribes to. I think that is a point many can agree with.

[Mark A]

Direct Experience

Hey Guys,
I just wanted to say that I am glad that the post is coming back to it its origins.

I dont understand why it is a pity for everyone that the thread is coming back to it's origins. Like I posted earlier, it was becoming so scholarly I was unable to understand most of it. I am a complete novice in this. I only have some direct experience. I dont know all the history and development of Zen and Daoism.

I think some examples that are simple and can be directly understood would be fantastic.

Also the last post on the Meditation/Chi Kung exercises posted by Anthony are fanastic. Not only does it allow us to learn but it can give us direct experiences of these Philosphies.

I learn a lot more when I can actually experience something. I am basically a simple country boy at heart

All this book learning gives me headache (Uh HUh)

Thanks for your time
Mark Appleford

[Andrew]

Referring to some posts above

Consider a bird:
- In Zen - there is no doubt - it is a bird
- In Taosim - could the bird in fact be a fish?

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Maybe Zen, but not Tao!

Dear Andrew:

You are a funny, funny man! What a hoot! Your post sounds a bit 'fishy' to me, if you know what I mean. Thanks for the laugh!

[Emiko H]

Modes of Address

A note re: the direction and nature of comments/posts

Comments should be about the ‘content’ of the material being discussed, and not directed at the personalities of the people making the posts.


Dear Brothers, Sisters and Honoured Guests,

It is good to see that Sifu Stier's original intention of holding a 'comparative analysis between these two spiritual philosophies' (Zen and Taoism) has returned to the forefront of this thread.

It is essential, as this examination of two important aspects of the 'comparative analysis' continues on (whether or not Zen is a blend of Indian Buddhism and Chinese Taoism; whether or not there is a chasm between scholarly speculation and direct experience), that we are consistent about presenting material that is sincere, clear and as accurate as possible.

Peace and blessings,

Emiko

[Marcus]

Hello everyone,

Post 223
Hello? I did open a new thread to discuss the similarities between these systems. IT WAS THIS THREAD! But it has since been highjacked into the undying argument! What a pity for everyone!

It is interesting. When I read the posts in this thread I can easily tell who is influenced by Zen and who by Tao, without having to look at the names of the writers. Anthony’s posts are good examples of Zen – simple, direct and effective. Sifu Stier’s posts are good examples of Tao, at least in my experience here – arcane, symbolic and effective.

Normally when one says “hello”, he uses it as a greeting. But here Sifu Stier uses it as a question (note the question mark behind the word). Sifu Stier, can you please explain the arcane meaning behind “Hello?”

I thought it was Sifu Stier who “highjacked” this thread by changing his own original intention of showing “this unique blend of the two spiritual philosophies is the signature hallmark of the Ch'an/Zen School” (Sifu Stier’s own words) into discussing “the similarities between these systems”. Yet, despite what Sifu Stier has said, he has NOT illustrated any similarities between Zen and Tao. Sifu Stier, is this symbolic of your idea of the Tao?

Sifu Stier is effective. He is very effective in making people confused. Luckily, my Zen training makes me simple, helping me to avoid falling into the confusion Sifu Stier has, intentionally or unintentionally, caused. Sifu Stier are you aware of the confusion you have caused? Are you aware that you are confusing or confused or both or clear in your intention of causing confusion?

I am aware of the call of many people to keep this long and interesting thread on proper track. Yet the questions I ask above are interesting. I hope Sifu Stier can answer them by starting another thread, perhaps titled “To confuse or to be confused”. But if Sifu Stier does not want to answer them, that is all right.

Moderator: by the time I've finished this post, I'll probably be off the current flavour of this thread, so if necessary please feel free to moderate this post.

Kind regards

Marcus



Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Antonius]

Ovidius, the quote you pasted is a famous story by the Zen master Kuo An Shi Yuan (Kakuan). The well-known Theravada master Walpola Rahula has this to say about the Ten Ox Pictures:

All the fundamental principles of Zen are already to be found in Theravada. The origin of the famous "Ox-herding pictures" of the old Zen Masters has been traced back to Theravada Pali sources. [Walpola Rahula, "Zen and the Taming of the Bull", Gordon Fraser, London, 1978, p11.]

[Antonius]

Language before Bodhidharma

Sunyata, Thanks for giving me another opportunity to practice what I preach. Here are the citations you asked for in your last post.

Many examples of language like what I posted but from before Bodhidharma's arrival in China can be found in Sifu's wonderful book, "The Complete Book of Zen." A few examples are pasted below:

From "The Complete Book of Zen", p70:

Ananda, the Buddha’s favourite attending-disciple, asked Mahakasyapa what the Buddha had transmitted to him. Mahakasyapa asked him to go out of the temple into the bamboo grove and find the answer there. Ananda went but returned without finding the answer. Mahakasyapa then told him, “Take down the banner!” Ananada instantly understood and was enlightened. Ananda became the Second Patriarch.

The Garland Sutra is poetic and descriptive, but not symbolic or arcane like Taoist writings. Here is an example from the Garland Sutra:

When the Buddha first attained enlightenment, the whole earth became purified, adorned with all types of jewels and flowers, and sweet–smelling perfume filled its every corner. Flowering vines entwined themselves around the Buddha, and on them were strewn strange jewels: gold, silver, lapis lazuli, agate, cornelian, coral and amber. From the leaves and the branches of the trees there was emitted a bright shining light. The change was brought about by the mysterious superpower of the Buddha. [Chiko Komatsu, The Way of Peace: the Life and Teaching of the Buddha, Hozokan Publishing Co, Kyoto, 1984, translated by Sekimori, 1989, p63, also quoted in "The Complete Book of Zen" on p60.]

While the language is “flowery”, it is not symbolic. Sweet-smelling perfume and strange jewels mean sweet-smelling perfume and strange jewels. They are not symbols for something else.

The description above -- though exotic to ordinary people -- was not imaginary. It describes the Buddha’s actual experience during his enlightenment. (Note: if ordinary people do not even believe in Qi, it should come as no surprise that they don't believe in experiences like this.) When the modern Zen master, Tai Xu, attained enlightenment at the Xi Fang Temple in China in 1909, he found, to his surprise, that his experience was similar to the one described in the Lotus Sutra above.

I think this is an excellent example of the importance of direct experience, so thank you for raising the question, Sunyata.

[Emiko H]

Anthony,

Thank you for keeping the thread on track.

Best,

Emiko

[chiron]

men

I like it when this thread makes people feel dumb as cement compared to the real splendour of a mightier intelliengence.

Thank you sifu siter for the quotes below they are exactly what my heart desires to hear and I would never have known it otherwise.

In the 'Sutra of Complete Enlightenment', the Buddha said: "Since the time without beginning, all living beings have been clinging wrongly to the reality of an ego, of a man, of a being, and of a life. They regard these four inverted illusions as their real bodies, thereby giving rise to like and dislike. Because of this false body, they cling to further falsehood, and the likes and dislikes, by relying on each other, create false karmas." And later in this same work, "Therefore, the result is that we like those who agree with us, and dislike and resent those contradicting us. Because of like and dislike, ignorance is preserved. As ignorance continues, it is impossible to realize anything in one's quest of the Truth."

Chuang-Tzu said: "Suppose you and I argue. If you beat me instead of my beating you, are you really right and am I really wrong? If I beat you instead of you beating me, am I really right and are you really wrong? Or are we both partly right and partly wrong? Or are we both wholly right and wholly wrong? Since between us neither you nor I know which is the case, others are naturally in the dark. Whom shall we ask to arbitrate? If we ask someone who agrees with you, how can they arbitrate? If we ask someone who agrees with me, how can they arbitrate? If we ask someone who agrees with both of us, or who disagrees with both of us, how can they arbitrate? So among us, which is right? Shall we wait for still others to arbitrate?.....Forget the distinction of right and wrong. Relax, and abide in the Realm of the Infinite!"

[Antonius]

Chi Kung exercises influenced by Zen, and by Taoism

Of the two chi kung exercises posted earlier, the first one was taken from page 43 of “The Art of Chi Kung” by my teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. The second was taken from pages 62-63 of “Cosmic Chi Kung” by Sifu Mantak Chia.

The difference in language and methodology between the two chi kung exercises is quite obvious. The first exercise is heavily influenced by Zen, and is simple and direct. The second is influenced by Taoism, and is complex and elaborated. Both exercises, if done correctly, can be effective at acheiving their goals.

Although my Sifu has been trained in Taoist philosophy and practices, his teaching is based on Zen. If Zen were a blend of Indian Buddhism and Chinese Taoism, my Sifu’s teaching would have more of a Taoist flavor. As you can see, it has a characteristically Zen flavor.

[Andrew]

I got it right again . Looking forward to the next instalment Anthony.

Andrew